I would like to start with your letter to the Ukrainians. There were words in it that seemed very strange to me in the spring of 2022. You said that we would be hungry, we would lose our homes and loved ones, but what would strike us most was the lie that we ourselves were to blame for the war. How could you have predicted this when the whole world supported Ukraine?
When the West, the UN, and any global players who are supposed to be the worldʼs policemen realize that they simply cannot solve the problem, they will never admit it. They will find another excuse, and the easiest way to get away with it is to place equal blame on the victim and the aggressor. To say that it is their old hatred and we do not want to get involved in it. It is easier for them to distort reality and have an explanation for why they are not doing anything.
Trump accused Ukraine of being the one to blame for the war, but in the fourth year of the Russiaʼs full-scale aggression. When did this happen to Bosnia?
From the very beginning of the hostilities. Even earlier, because the war in Bosnia began in 1992, and in Yugoslavia as a whole — in 1991. And even then the UN imposed an embargo on the supply of weapons to all the republics of Yugoslavia. That is, all the weapons that we had were taken away by the Serbs, and no one could buy new ones. And instead of just saying “ok, we screwed up,” they came up with a story about old hatred between the nations, equal guilt, and that it was better not to interfere in the war. This effectively allowed one side to kill the other. And even those who wanted to help Bosnia with weapons could not violate the embargo. This is not at all the same as what is happening in Ukraine. Fortunately, you are supplied with weapons, and you have an army. But even under those conditions, we survived. So you will definitely survive.
Unfortunately, Russia has nuclear weapons, and therefore we are not counting on the happy, in its own way, ending of the war that you had — when the world did stop the aggressor with force and bombs.
Yes, in the case of Bosnia, the world lacked the will to stop the war, in your case it lacks the ability. No one knows how to do it without provoking World War III. The only advantage is that your allies know that you are fighting for them too. And they donʼt really have the choice to just walk away.
Okay. Now we can go back to the beginning of your story. When war broke out in Bosnia in the spring of 1992 and Sarajevo was under siege, you put your two-year-old son on a bus with strangers and sent him to his relatives in Germany. Your mother went on another bus. I also have a two-year-old daughter who was born in Kyiv in 2022. But I absolutely cannot fathom how I could part with her. Why did you do that? Why didnʼt you go together? Did you feel that you had some kind of super-important mission?
No, thatʼs because I was just stupid (laughs). Because even six months after the war started, I couldnʼt believe that it would last so long. I wanted them to just spend the winter in Germany. Because there was no heating, no electricity, not enough food, no water in the city — they would just die. I thought I would stay and they would come back to me in two or three months. Four years later, I realized how wrong I was.
Did you regret this decision?
No, never! When I saw babies injured and killed, I always thought I had done the right thing.
Aida in Sarajevo during the siege, 1994.
X (Twitter) / «Бабель»
I meant, did you regret not going with your son and mother?
No, never. And I would make this choice again. I just donʼt like being a refugee, a second-class citizen in a foreign country. And this is purely my feeling, and it is not necessarily correct. I respect people who decided differently for themselves at that time.
Can you recall your arguments at that moment? The choice of "to leave or to stay" is still facing many Ukrainians, and perhaps your logic will help someone decide.
I thought: okay, if I leave, then with a probability of 100% I will save my life and I will have no more than a 50% chance of becoming a first-class citizen somewhere, with a certain status in society. If I stay, I will have a 50% chance of surviving, but I will be at home, not a refugee who burdens everyone. I chose the latter. It is actually not very rational, and this logic is definitely not for everyone. And I, besides of that, had a mission.
Yes, I wanted to ask about that. You were a journalist, you had a mission. You understood that if you left, others would not take your place in the blockaded city.
Yes, it is obvious that my departure would also be their victory. I am not the kind of person you can just come up to and say, “Get out of your house.” I wanted to resist. I was a journalist, and that was my job.
Ukraine has been at war for many years, and over the last three we have gone through many stages, we can describe each one in detail. They are very different. Now we have entered the fourth year of a full-scale invasion. The war in Bosnia also lasted a little less than four years. What stage was the most difficult for you? Perhaps we still have it ahead of us.
It was early 1994 — the siege had been going on for almost two years. That was when I realized that no one was going to do anything about it. And there was no more food or water. We burned all the trees in all the parks in Sarajevo. After that, to keep warm, we started burning books — first thick ones, like Dostoevsky and Marx. Dostoevsky was enough to cook dinner. Then we got to the furniture and the wooden floors. We were constantly freezing and lived on concrete floors for month after month. And after all that, it came to tires, which smelled awfully, but gave warmth. We had entire cookbooks with recipes — how many tire strips were needed to cook rice or warm tea. It was very difficult, but people somehow adapted.
The hardest winter in occupied Sarajevo, 1994. During the siege in the city, dozens of children died from snipers, hunger, and disease.
Getty Images / «Babel'»
What other "inventions" do you remember?
For example, there is a street with houses on both sides. But you canʼt walk along it because snipers are sitting on the hills. What did we do? On the first floors of the houses, we punched through the walls of the apartments and simply made a parallel street, closed from the snipers.
I wanted to ask you about how people changed in extreme conditions. When we asked Ukrainians who spent some time in the basements of Mariupol under Russian shelling, they said that people did not always show themselves from the best side. Sarajevo was under blockade much longer — you had a lot of time to observe this evolution.
You know, it may sound strange, but I miss the atmosphere of besieged Sarajevo. There I realized that all these individual strategies of escape and survival do not work. The only way to survive in extremely difficult conditions is to stay together. Alone you have no chance. In Sarajevo, everyone shared everything. Imagine, in a city where everything was in short supply, we did not lock the doors. Because when the shooting started, those who found themselves on the street had to hide somewhere quickly, they did not have time to knock on the door. People just ran in and stayed for a day, two, three. They were given a place to sleep, and thatʼs how friendships were formed.
During the siege, Sarajevo was shelled daily, with the highest number of shells fired on July 22, 1993, at 3,777.
Getty Images / «Babel'»
Kyiv went through this in the first months of the invasion. I returned only in mid-May and found it only partially. Over time, this spirit of unity gradually disappeared.
Yes, as soon as the external threat disappears, people start locking their doors — this is normal.
It was not by chance that I mentioned Mariupol. There, the main conflicts during the Russian shelling in the basements were between Ukrainians who were cheering for the Armed Forces of Ukraine and those who were waiting for the Russians. In Bosnia and Sarajevo, the situation is somewhat different — there were many ethnic Serbs living there, how did they behave after the siege began?
Our situation was a little different — these people didn’t sit with us in the basements, they went to the roofs and shot us with sniper rifles. We called them the “fifth column.” When it all started, they already had weapons and defined positions. These were the snipers from Sarajevo, who were later cleared out [by Bosnian government forces]. They either fled or were killed. Those who fled continued to kill us from positions on the hills around the city.
When the Yugoslav Peopleʼs Army surrounded Sarajevo, approximately 70,000 government troops remained in the city. However, they were poorly armed and unable to break through the blockade.
Getty Images / «Babel'»
And before the war, were these people your neighbors?
Yes. Although there was no one in my house who went over to the other side. But in the neighboring one, there were. But you have to be very careful. There were Serbs sitting in the basements with us, who were resisting the siege. And the chief of staff of the Bosnian army was a Serb from Belgrade. In total, there were 30,000 Serbs in Sarajevo who were on our side.
And your husband was also a Serb. Was he with you the whole time in Sarajevo?
Yes.
And how did he himself feel about the Serbs, did he hate them?
He didnʼt hate Serbs, he was a Serb. The thing is that we didnʼt perceive all Serbs as enemies. What helped us was the terminology. During World War II, there were representatives of Yugoslavia who collaborated with Germany — they were called Chetniks. And there were partisans, among whom there were also many Serbs. That is, Serbs were on both sides and shot at each other. So those who shot at us in our war, we called Chetniks, and those who were with us — Serbs.
So, "Serb" is not a synonym for the word "enemy" for you.
Yes.
Aida Cerkez, Sarajevo, 1992.
Sukrija Dzidzovic
Itʼs different with the Russians. I wanted to ask if itʼs possible, after so many years of suffering, death, and pain, to feel real joy that the war is over. This is a theoretical question for Ukrainians, and you can answer it quite accurately.
Maybe. The moment I was told the war was over is one of the most memorable in my life. I was sitting in the dark, starting the generator to call the office. I was working at the Associated Press at the time, and every night at 7:00 p.m. I had to call my office in Vienna, and it was a long procedure. Satellite phones were big, complicated, and heavy. You had to go out on the roof, adjust the antenna to a satellite in the Indian or Atlantic oceans. Fill the generator with fuel. It took at least an hour. And then I finally dialed the number, and my editor said, “I think you should sit down.” I sat down, and she said, “Aida, the war is over.” I knew there had been talks in America, and I asked, “How did it end?” She said that we have a country, but it’s divided, but it’s a sovereign country that’s not part of Serbia.
So I can only advise you to lower your expectations. It is impossible to get absolute justice and perfect peace. You have to think about the maximum justice you can get in this world, keeping in mind who your enemy is.
What was the maximum justice for you and your people at that time?
We survived it. Our country survived. You know, it was really cool just to be able to walk down the street and not imagine every second that a sniper somewhere on the other side was seeing you with a cross on your forehead. I had this itchy spot on my forehead for years, and I scratched it because I couldnʼt get rid of the feeling. It was cool just to get in the cars and drive out of town. And what a pleasure it was to turn on the tap with warm water. People would go to the toilet just to flush the water and watch it run.
But the greatest satisfaction I got from the trials was when the international tribunal in The Hague started to really prosecute the people who were shooting at me. For me, it was something that put the world back in its rightful place.
The photo shows six Bosnian Croats, who were indicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia for the murder of more than 100 Bosnian Muslims in 1993, The Hague, October 1997. General Stanislav Galic commanded the Bosnian Serbs who shelled and besieged Sarajevo. He was accused of terrorizing the local population and sentenced to 20 years in prison in 2003. In 2006, the sentence was overturned on appeal, and Galic received a life sentence.
Getty Images / «Babel'»
So you didnʼt want bloody revenge?
Thatʼs the question. What would give you more satisfaction: if you find the murderer, for example, of your brother, and shoot him? Or if he is arrested and then sent to an international court? The whole world will see him on television, witnesses will tell the truth about the atrocities he committed. And then an international court, this is important — not a national one, but an international one, will send him to prison for the rest of his life.
For a military commander who is used to giving orders and feeling like a god in war, there is nothing worse than having a little female guard tell him to “get up, sit down, go to your cell.” That moment was a moment of internal revenge and justice for me at the same time.
This is what Ukrainians dream about every day, but have less and less hope for.
Why? Look at what Trump has done in a hundred days — the world has turned upside down. You cannot be sure that the regime in Russia will not change just as quickly and the new government, in order to get big preferences, will not hand over its criminals to the West. The world can be changed very quickly.
If the world doesnʼt change and Ukraine gets some peace, but criminals walk free, we will lose our lands and people. Do you believe in the sustainability of such peace?
No, because peace is impossible without justice. Terrible bitterness will remain, and this is a bad foundation for peace. I would say it is the absence of war, but not peace. There may be political, cultural wars next, and although they are not so deadly, they will not allow to live normally and develop.
During your speech at the Lviv Media Forum, you said that the most popular people during a war are those who fuel popular anger or hatred. You were talking about journalists, but in Ukraine this also applies to bloggers and various activists. They play on peopleʼs fears and pain to score political points and popularity. Your country has passed this stage, whatʼs next?
These are populists who are gaining influence, but they will not necessarily come to power. When it is all over, there may be people who will expose their tactics and call them instigators of hatred. This is one scenario, and it is quite real.
At the Lviv Media Forum, Aida repeated that without justice and fairness, true peace is impossible.
Lviv Media Forum
Very often in Ukraine we hear words like: the hardest part will begin after the war ends. And very often this is said by people who did not go through the war. You went through it, so what was the hardest thing after the war?
This is a difficult question, I have to think… The hardest thing was the war-traumatized society. Trauma and aggression in every person. According to the World Health Organization, 70% of all residents of the country had PTSD. That is, 70% of your citizens are crazy, and the remaining 30% have to somehow live with them and build a country. For example, I sent my cousin, a former soldier who killed people, to finish school and then to university. It was very difficult for him to accept the authority of his professor, who asked him why he did not hand in an assignment on time. It is difficult to make people with PTSD stand in line at the checkout and wait — they have no patience. They are afraid of enclosed spaces, afraid of flying, they sleep with their clothes on. Many return with aggression and beat their wives and children. You will definitely face this too, and you need as many professionals as possible to deal with these problems. All these traumas will not allow you to think rationally, to vote rationally. Very stupid people can come to power.
Who won the first post-war elections in Bosnia?
The same people who fought the war. Over the years, weʼve slowly gotten rid of them, but itʼs taken a long time. Because people are still afraid of another war. In fact, theyʼre not voting for someone, theyʼre voting against — and thatʼs not exactly the right idea.
I never ask anyone when the war will end, because itʼs all speculation, but you see a lot in common in our stories. Which scenario seems more realistic to you?
I think it will be endless negotiations. Before the Dayton Accords came along, we stopped counting at around 300 rounds of negotiations. One day you will completely lose faith, but something will work.
I never could have dreamed that Radovan Karadzic would stand trial, but he was caught and put in prison. Itʼs like when you wait for graduation for many years, thinking, one day Iʼll graduate from this stupid faculty. And then on graduation day you celebrate, even though youʼre already empty inside. And a few days later you think, "Damn it, I did it!"
Former Republika Srpska leader Radovan Karadzic appeared before the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia in 2008. In March 2016, the tribunal sentenced Karadzic to 40 years in prison for war crimes and genocide during the Bosnian War. In particular, for organizing the mass murder of Muslims in Srebrenica in 1995. In 2019, the sentence was increased, and Karadzic received a life sentence. Karadzic is pictured in court, July 2008, The Hague.
Getty Images / «Babel'»