Biography
First, letʼs try to briefly go through your biography. You have one big interview in three parts (one, two, three), I watched them. You were born in Makiivka. What is your education? What business? Very little is known about this.
I was really born in Makiivka. From there I was drafted into the Armed Forces to serve in the Airborne Forces, which were then participating in the so-called Afghan wars.
We were all young then, there was special propaganda, so it happened the way it happened. I served in the legendary 345th regiment. Who doesnʼt know, maybe youʼve seen the movie "9th Company".
Itʼs about those events and about the regiment where I served, and half of the real characters are depicted in that movie. Then I graduated from the Horlivka Medical School.
In Afghanistan, Oleksandr Kovalyov served in the 345th Separate Guards Parachute Regiment. Russian director Fyodor Bondarchuk made a film about the 9th company of this regiment in 2005. The film was a great success in the Ukrainian box office. Kovalyov (center) with a grenade in his mouth.
Do you have a medical degree?
Yes. But then we found ourselves in a turning point, it was a restructuring and redistribution of everything in the world. Everyone was looking for a way to survive, how to feed a young family.
So I started doing business, in particular coal, because coal is a region where there is nothing else to do, not even fish. My second education is Brovary Technological University, majoring in "human resource management".
What do you do to make money?
There is no such business now. And before there was a coal business, which ended with the great war in 2014. So…
Youʼre just often called a very rich person, and accordingly, you want to understand where the wealth comes from. But we have so many other questions that we canʼt delve into this deeply. Are you a very rich person?
I am rich in friends.
And money?
Unfortunately nope. I think Iʼm an average person these days, when it comes to wealth.
I would like to ask right away about your connections in Chechnya. They obviously exist. Even just visually — you have such an un-Ukrainian beard. There is a Caucasian accent in your speech. And we saw on your social networks that your son dances Lezginka professionally and he did it at a Chechen wedding. How are you connected to Chechnya?
Both mentally and with blood, I would say.
Are these some connections from the Afghanistan days?
No. In Afghanistan, we also had guys from the Chechen Republic serving. We went through this time very well and still have close relations. Until this day, I was an advisor to the chairman of the board of the Chechen diaspora from Ukraine.
There is a lot to do with Chechnya, it is, so to speak, a separate page of our dialogue. Because today Chechnya is also divided into pros and cons. We have guys-volunteers from the Sheikh Mansur battalion who have been fighting for Ukraine since 2014.
And, unfortunately, there are Chechens who are participating in the war against Ukraine from that side. Thatʼs how life has arranged it. I think that later history will somehow judge this in its own way.
What part of the Chechens do you have connections with? Those who are for it, those who are against it, or both sides?
We communicate with both sides.
And thanks to these connections, you can participate in negotiations and exchange Ukrainians who are currently in Chechnya?
Yes. Now I can, if necessary, go and pick up our boys who have been [held] there for almost three years.
Have you done this before?
If you believe the documents and facts, since 2014 I am the first and only one who started to extract prisoners in this war. Even from Crimea. They were not even prisoners yet, it was a group of journalists who were captured in Crimea. And thanks to my efforts they returned in 2014.
What kind of group of journalists is this?
I donʼt know if it would be ethical to call them that. This is the group "Babylon 13".
And how did you manage to pull them out?
Then the head of the State Security Department (SSD) Valery Geletey asked me to find journalists in Crimea. They were two people: the son of a famous politician Vyacheslav (meaning Yaroslav Pilunsky), who will confirm this to you, and another person.
They went to Crimea to film a report on the events, but they were captured. Security forces from Ukraine went there, but were unable to get them out. They turned to me.
I used our veteran connections — we have a very strong veteran organization — and turned to the guys who, unfortunately, chose the other side, but did not lose their human qualities.
After my call, the captured guys were fed, given water, taken outside the borders of Crimea and told not to come across them again. At the conference, they said that they did not know how they escaped, but they recalled that after a certain call, they stopped pressuring them and quickly released them.
Babylon 13 cameramen Yaroslav Pilunsky and Yuriy Hruzynov spent five days in captivity in occupied Crimea. They were beaten and tortured. After their release, they said that "very important people" had asked for them.
Babel contacted Yaroslav Pilunsky. In 2014, he said that they were released at the request of “very important people”, that’s what the separatists said. We asked if he knew who these people were and whether Oleksandr Kovalyov had anything to do with his release. Pilunsky says that he had no contact with the militants and cannot confirm this information. But given that Kovalyov helped to free various people from captivity, he does not rule out that it is true.
Maidan and assistance to the "Black Mouth" of the "Berkut"
Itʼs an interesting story, but just calling the other side and asking to be released on parole is unrealistic. There must be some background. Letʼs take a step back to better understand all the events. In your interview two years ago, you said that you did not support the Maidan, although you believe that 90% of it was a protest of people who stood up for their rights and freedoms. But you have your own story connected with this. In the summer of 2013, someone called you from Russia...
No, from the USA.
So the call was from America, from an acquaintance of yours, who said that someone in Russia wanted to talk to you. And this conversation ended up being about your organization of Afghans becoming the fighting wing of the upcoming protests.
Yes.
A combat wing from the Ukrainian side or from the Russian side?
My fellow soldier, with whom I was in that war, called back and said: “Our fellow soldier will come to you, he lives in America now. He really wants to see you.”
And then our organization was on everyone’s lips, so to speak, we were very noisy, active, extraordinary.
I would say scary, because they are powerful.
Well, I won’t say that about us myself. This person came to my office. He really served in the same regiment as me. He said that at that time we were the most active and loudest veteran organization and, in his opinion, were “ready for combat operations”.
And then he says: “There is a task. There will be popular protests, there will be an expression of the will of Ukrainians, and suddenly we will have to defend not with words, but with deeds. Here we offer you to become a combat unit of protests.”
I replied that I am not a supporter of war on our land. He stayed with me for almost a month. It was July [2013]. He promised various benefits, but I refused.
So, did you understand which countryʼs politicians he represents — Ukrainian or Russian?
He came to me from the USA, he cooperated with American law enforcement agencies.
He offered you money, where did it come from?
I didnʼt ask him, I cut him off because I didnʼt understand how to start a war on my own land. This contradicts my upbringing.
But you, in fact, were the fighting wing before that. You seized the parliament and the Cabinet by force. You can understand why he came to you. He asked for the same forceful support. Did he talk about war?
Well, in some way, yes.
In September 2011, Afghans from "Nobody But Us" and other categories of beneficiaries demanded the resignation of the parliament, which wanted to limit benefits. Protesters stormed the Rada several times.
Iʼll make it more specific. Do you think the Maidan protests were predicted or planned by someone in the US?
I cannot know or be responsible for their thoughts and actions. The fact that top-ranking politicians from the United States came to the Maidan and expressed their opinion about who was right and who was wrong is a fact. I can say for myself that when someone offered me to become a combat unit in such a context, I refused.
When the Maidan took place, in our organization we gathered a large meeting of all the leaders of our regions and chose a peacemaking path for ourselves.
That is why on the Maidan, some people from our organization stood as peacemakers, right between the protesters and the security forces. The first flags on the Maidan were those of our organization “Nobody but Us”.
But you didnʼt advise going to the Maidan?
I advised everyone to make their own choice. And in case there was bloodshed, I asked everyone to do everything to prevent it.
At the moment when the “Berkut” started shooting protesters, did you already understand that the bloodshed was being inspired and, in fact, on the side of the authorities?
I saw the videos of the “Berkut” shooting, that everything was going too far. I understood that people on both sides were very strongly brought up and that the “Berkut” itself was not fulfilling these duties of its own free will.
Their function is to maintain law and order. They did not act like a gang. In the same way, later they will evaluate the actions of TRC, who, wearing masks.
I emphasize, wearing masks, beat people, dragging them into small groups. As we are discussing the “Berkut” today, I think there will be a time when TRC will also be discussed.
Nobody is judging the “Berkut” for standing on the street and performing their duties. The “Berkut” are being judged for shooting at unarmed people. And this is no longer the performance of official duties, but the crimes for which the “Berkut” officers were later tried.
Thatʼs right. But no one was convicted, thatʼs whatʼs interesting. None of the “Berkut” officers have been convicted and it hasnʼt been proven who actually shot.
They politically accused the “Berkut”, they see them as scape goats.
In February 2026, the Prosecutor Generalʼs Office reported that 585 people were suspected in the "Maidan cases", the courts passed 93 guilty verdicts, 76 of which entered into legal force. In February 2014, over 100 protesters were killed during rallies. In total, 2 442 people were victims of crimes during the Euromaidan period.
Getty Images / «Babel'»
Wait, Dmytro Sadovnykʼs "Black Company" is known. And many "Berkut" members cannot be convicted and a full investigation cannot be conducted, because they fled to Russia. And you were the one who helped to take the Kyiv "Berkut" out of Kyiv.
Yes.
You explained that after the ceasefire agreement was reached at the end of the Maidan, so that there would be no new clashes, the “Berkut” had to be taken out. Various MPs took out the “Berkut” units that were based in their regions. You helped take out the Kyiv “Berkut” and didn’t know that it was the “Black Company”, because it was right after the shootings. You said that you didn’t check whether they had weapons with them. But then at the trial, several members of your organization testified that they called you and said that they had seen weapons left by the “Berkut” in the organization’s office, and after talking to you, they helped destroy them. Specifically, they helped Serhiy Yakovenko, who, by the way, was convicted of helping the “Berkut” officers escape. That is, you knew that there were weapons, and they destroyed them.
No. Serhiy Yakovenko came to my office and asked for help. At that time, he was an employee of the Economic Security Department of the Ministry of Internal Affairs.
During the time of Yanukovych, he was conducting criminal proceedings against me, because Yanukovych gave instructions against me to destroy me, to tear me apart for the protests that I organized. I was a mortal enemy for him. Especially after we all turned our backs on him.
In February 2012, when President Yanukovych laid flowers at a memorial to veterans of the war in Afghanistan, members of Kovalyovʼs organization "Nobody But Us" turned their backs on him. This caused a huge scandal.
When did Yanukovych lay flowers at the memorial to Afghan soldiers?
Yes, and he [Yakovenko] says: “You guys are quite sane, you help both Maidan supporters and security forces to resolve conflicts on the spot.”
I say: “Yes. Why?”
He says: “There is a problem. The ʼBerkutʼ base is surrounded, there are wives and children inside, and some have parents. Help take them out, and the guys will defend themselves.”
I say: “Listen, what is the point of this defense? If we help take the children and wives out, let them evacuate from here, and then they can decide as they want. If they are guilty, they will face justice. If they are innocent, let them prove it. But we will help avoid bloodshed.”
Because the “Berkut” officers were already on the verge, they would have already been shooting at people. It would have been 100% bloodshed.
I asked our guys to organize an evacuation — to hire taxis or minibuses and take them to the left bank. That was the help. And what they took out, personal belongings or iron, I didnʼt follow them. The fact that these guys testified that they...
Bags with weapons were seen in the organizationʼs office.
No, there were no bags in the office. They saw the bags being taken out. And no one saw what they were carrying. It wasnʼt really the case back then. And, according to sources, they found the same bags buried somewhere in the Hydropark with the remains of weapons.
On the Trukhanov Island, it seems.
I don’t want to specify where. In fact, we did take out families, a certain number of “Berkut” officers. They were taken to the left bank, they spent the night there, whoever could, and then they left.
No one saw anyone else. That was all the help. But we helped prevent bloodshed, and I’m not ashamed to say it.
Ten years ago, in February 2016, in the Holosiivsky district of Kyiv, SBU found caches of weapons from which security forces fired on the Maidan.
So they didnʼt call you and tell you that there were bags of weapons and that they were going to destroy them?
No.
Witnesses say otherwise, letʼs record that.
Rescue of the State Security Department special forces in Donetsk
Letʼs move on to 2014. The Maidan is ending. Your photo appears against the backdrop of the Donetsk Regional State Administration. In the comments under it, you wrote that there were people there who were close to you in their views. The Minister of Energy during Poroshenkoʼs era Ihor Nasalyk came in the comments. You were his assistant…
He held various positions. He was at “Naftogaz”, was a minister, and an MP.
And so he wrote that he never thought that you would ever find yourself on different sides of the barricades. You answered him: "Be able to read between the lines." After that, you began to be actively called a pro-Russian politician. In an interview, you explained that you were in Donetsk as part of some special forces unit...
Yes, to the special unit of the State Security Department.
How did you end up there and what were you doing?
Sometime in the spring, the head of SSD Valery Geletey contacted me. I have known him for a very long time, since his work in the internal affairs bodies. He first contacted me about the liberation from Crimean captivity. And then he asked to resolve some situations. For this I have awards.
And then he called, remembered that I was from Donetsk region. He offered to go with him to Donetsk. By that time, there had already been an episode with Slovyansk, when they came, so to speak, how would you call them…
Separatists?
The separatists, letʼs call them that. They captured Slovyansk, and then, in some miraculous way — thatʼs a separate story — they marched a hundred or so kilometers from Slovyansk to Donetsk, and no one stopped them. But this is not a question for me, but for the top leadership.
Are you talking about Girkin?
Yes, about Girkin.
Geletey says: "Letʼs go." We got in the car and drove to Donetsk. I took two guys to help. Geletey drove in his minibus with a driver and an assistant.
Wait. Geletey says, “Let’s go to Donetsk, where pro-Russian militants are currently seizing buildings.” And you say, “Let’s go.” For what?
I understood that they were not calling me for tea and pies, but usually they call me when there is no way out. We drove to Donetsk in two cars, set up camp. Protests were already gaining momentum there.
We arrived at the Donetsk SBU building, which had just been liberated from protesters. There was only one warrant officer in the building, everything was in disarray. From there, everyone went to the Regional State Administration building.
It was surrounded by protesters, or, I would say, by rioters, because it was just the beginning, people didn’t even understand what they were participating in. Geletey asked me, as a local, to understand the situation.
I arrived at the Regional State Administration building, saw several hundred people there — the entire SSD special forces, they formed a perimeter defense of the building.
The meeting room of the Donetsk SBU after the building was liberated by the State Security Department special forces.
Wait, why were the SSD special forces in Donetsk? Did they come to you?
They flew there by plane to me — 220 people (the head of the special forces unit Vladyslav Koshmyakov had previously spoken in detail about this operation).
Apparently, the situation got out of control, and they simply barricaded themselves in. They had no order to retreat, I didn’t hear any other orders. I learned about the situation on the street.
Everyone knows me in Donetsk. I know everyone, all the security officers. I know the guys from the street, and that played a certain role later. I returned and told Geletey that there was a problem and, unfortunately, we don’t have any supporters here.
He said: “Listen, we need ammunition and food delivered to us now. And we have to somehow stabilize the situation here.”
To which I replied: “That won’t happen. No one will come here anymore. No one will come here anymore...”
Wonʼt they miss it?
First, they wouldnʼt let me in. Second, no one ever arrived. There was almost no ammunition or food. I was the only one who could go outside the surrounded SBU building to a large megamarket.
I used my own money to buy food for all these two hundred or so people. They simply recognized my car and let me through.
Were these pro-Russian militants? That is, were they armed people who wouldnʼt let anyone through?
No. The armed men were in the regional administration, it was clear that they were not miners. I clearly saw the trained guys surrounded by Girkin. True, at that time I did not know that it was Girkin, I did not yet understand who we were talking to. I simply saw that these people were trained.
And I told Valery Viktorovych [Geletey] that we had a maximum of 24 hours to leave and take out the unit. He replied that the Deputy Prime Minister Vitaliy Yarema was in the city, and asked me to tell him about it personally.
And where was Yarema?
He was in the building of the Regional Department of Internal Affairs, in the chiefʼs office (at that time the head of the regional Department of Internal Affairs was attacked, and he left the region). We went into the office, I told Yarema that I had walked around the city, collected information and could say that the situation was not in our favour.
And, most likely, either someone would provoke a conflict between us, or they would specifically escalate it. It was better to leave, because the forces were extremely unequal. They listened to me, nodded their heads.
We returned to the SBU building, and Vitaliy Hryhorovych [Yarema] left for Kyiv. And we were left alone in this situation.
They started calling me and saying: "Listen, you leave the building, and we will deal with the people of Kyiv."
I replied that I could not do this, because it contradicted my mentality. Even if they are enemies, they are with me, I cannot leave.
Why do you say “even if they are enemies”? They [special forces] could not be your enemies.
Thatʼs why I say "even if." In the Caucasus, if your sworn enemy comes into your home, you are obligated to feed and protect him until he leaves your home.
In the Caucasus proper, apparently.
Yes, in the historical Caucasus, which historically connects Ukraine and the Chechen Republic.
In short, I came to Geletey and said that we were given a day to think about it, and then there would be some situation that I would not be able to control. He asked what I proposed to do. And I said that an evacuation was needed. He took the time to think and consult.
At that time, I went to the Regional State Administration building. We had a pass there for all floors. Protesters were only allowed to go to the first three floors. Three more floors were occupied by people in military uniform and with weapons, no one was allowed there.
And a separate elevator could be used to go up to the 9th-11th floors. There were also protesters there, but they were of a higher rank, as they say...
Kovalyov against the backdrop of the Donetsk Regional State Administration captured by separatists, April 2014.
Did the SSD members plan to vacate the building?
Yes, SSD planned to seize the regional council building, I went to see the balance of power and then said that the situation was not in our favor "at all". So the operation was abandoned.
Geletey called someone for a long time, saw for himself that the situation was critical, and said: “Get us out of here.” It was already evening, the building was surrounded by two or three rings, and I felt that it might be too late. Opposite the SBU was a fire station building, people with weapons were sitting on the observation tower and watching our movements in the courtyard of the SBU building.
I took an hour to organize, went outside, talked to the guys from the street, asked for help. I explained that it was better for us not to start bloodshed in Donetsk. We came up with an interesting plan and in a few hours the entire special forces — three large buses, the department head’s minibus, and my jeep — dispersed.
You donʼt want to say what kind of operation this is?
We just left.
You went to talk to Girkin, right?
When we were leaving the regional administration building, people in military uniforms approached me on the first floor. I didn’t know them.
They said: “Listen, what are you doing here?” And I was with my fellow countrymen, I said that I was at home. I hang out wherever I want. To this I was told that someone wanted to talk to me.
We went into a small office on the first or second floor, sat down at a table. There were three or four local guys with me. There were five on the other side — all armed. Girkin came in.
He said: “You hang out here often, you are often seen near the SBU building. What are you doing here?” I said that I came from Kyiv, I am originally from Makiivka, I am at home. I said that I was interested in what was going on here, asked who I was talking to.
He replied: “What difference does it make?” and said that if I wanted, I could stay, if not, then… Here our Donetsk guys said that they had known me for a long time, that they had no questions for me. He asked if I was a soldier. I replied that I had come to talk to my countrymen and that my soul ached for my Donbas. We talked for fifteen minutes. He asked what we were going to do, whether we would support them.
I said: “We don’t want to go anywhere.” He left, his people followed him, and I was free to leave.
I arrived at Geletey and said: “We have very little time. We have to leave.”
Why were you allowed to leave anyway? Did you make an agreement with someone?
Yes, with the street.
And who controlled the street?
These are all our Donetsk guys.
Bandits?
No, what kind of bandits? Respectable enough people. Not politicians. But their names wonʼt tell you anything, you wonʼt find them on the Internet, anywhere.
If you were so well-versed in the situation, you obviously understood that Russians had moved in there, not just separatists. What did people in Donetsk say?
Then the guys said that a lot of people from Rostov and Taganrog had really come to us. These were strangers. They said they could deal with them. And Donetsk would be Ukrainian at least.
This is the first time Iʼm saying this. When these thoughts converged in one place, in the center of Donetsk, they said, give us the opportunity to deal with these people, they were left without answers.
Is the central place in Donetsk the Regional State Administration?
Yes. The guys were waiting for an answer, and Donetsk would be a calm Ukrainian city. But no one supported them. So they helped me leave the encirclement around the Donetsk SBU.
We hired three large buses for the childrenʼs football team, told all the drivers that the team would go to the competition in Kyiv.
When the drivers saw that healthy guys in black uniforms, without identification marks, with cases with weapons were running out of the building, they, of course, refused. But it was too late, we politely asked them to take the buses to Zaporizhzhia, so that we could let them out there.
How did Geletey leave?
Together with me and...
..the football team.
Valeriy Geletey and the temporarily acting head of the Presidential Administration Serhiy Pashinsky show the flags of Russia and the pseudo-republic in Donetsk, which were seized by the State Security Department special forces in the SBU building in Donetsk, Kyiv, 2014.
The then head of the SSD special forces Vladyslav Koshmyakov said in an interview in 2019 that Afghan soldiers helped to remove the special forces from the city. He also stated that the countryʼs leadership, in particular the then acting head of the Presidential Administration Serhiy Pashinsky actually abandoned the special forces in Donetsk without weapons and food. When Kovalyov was elected an MP, Koshmyakov became his assistant.
Rinat Akhmetov was the most influential and richest person in the region at the time. Did you try to contact his people? What was his position? Did he influence the situation?
I know that Rinat Leonidovych came to the regional administration, he tried to arrange for people to disperse, tried to stabilize the situation. Unfortunately, nothing worked.
And why did you write these strange comments under the post, like "people are on a wonderful rise"? Youʼre saying now that you werenʼt for the separatists.
If I were for the separatists... Let me tell you something. My main business remained in Donetsk, I had no other business anywhere. My mother remained in Donetsk. Alone. And I understood that I was putting her through a great test of life.
After my departure, they hunted her for three months. I never told anyone about this, Iʼll tell you. My mother is a Ukrainian from Vinnytsia. She was born in 1936, died here, in Ukraine, and did not see this war, thanks God.
Then I had a choice: stay home or save SSDʼs special forces and leave my mother in danger. I chose to save SSD.
Who was hunting her? The Russians?
"Deenerivtsi". They later clearly knew who took out SSD. And thatʼs why they were hunting for my mother. I had to hide her in Ilovaisk. She found those hot battles there, she was in the very epicenter, there was no contact with her for three months. I asked both sides to take her out. No one could go there.
In 2014, the Afghans helped exchange military prisoners. What exchanges did you participate in?
I think that the Afghans are what you are talking about the members of our organization “Nobody but Us”. I was negotiating for the Bars internal troops unit to leave Crimea peacefully, they were stationed in Kyzyltash. I was negotiating for the guys who wanted to go to the mainland to be released.
When the first military captures began in Luhansk and Donetsk regions, I started pulling them out too. For example, Colonel [Sergei] Mordvinov, this is our paratrooper from Zhytomyr, who, unfortunately, was shot down on the territory of the Luhansk airport.
The entire team died, one colonel remained alive. We found him and released him without PR. We are doing it silently. We rescued 19 servicemen who were captured in Bakhmut. We rescued the guys from the special forces — from the third regiment (Kirovohrad) and from the eighth (Khmelnytskyi).
Policy
In 2019, you are entering politics for the smallest 51st electoral district, which includes part of Horlivka, occupied since 2014, and part of the Bakhmut district.
This was the only warring district.
You became an MP, gaining the fewest votes in all of Ukraine, you were supported by 222 people.
There were 33 candidates in this district.
And among them is Nadia Savchenko. We read your election program. It says, in particular, "that the Ukrainian authorities have taken away a peaceful life, the joy of peacetime and do not want to return it." You said that you want to stop the oppression of Russian-speakers and that the Russian language be allowed to live peacefully. So in 2014, you saw Russians with your own eyes in Donetsk, and in 2019 you say that the Ukrainian authorities are to blame for the war? Did you really think so, or was it a political slogan with which you wanted to get 220 votes?
First of all, I am not a politician, I do not consider myself a politician.
On August 29, 2019, Oleksandr Kovalyov became an MP, winning in the countryʼs smallest electoral district. He needed 220 votes to win. His rival Nadia Savchenko received only 8.
Being an MP?
Yep, being an MP. I could have become an MP, if I remember correctly, since 1993, but I didnʼt want to go into politics. In 1992, we were the first to launch a project to help orphans, then we defended the rights of prisoners. In 2008, we opened our organization "Nobody But Us" for veteransʼ rights. So if you look at it this way, Iʼve been a defender my whole life.
In Afghanistan, there is a question of who protected whom.
Afghanistan is an untold story. I once spoke with the Minister of Culture of Afghanistan. He is much younger than me and did not want to sit at the same table with me. To which I asked the translator to translate for him.
I say: “Listen, the Soviet Union built your roads. The Soviet Union built your hospitals. They built your industry, power plants, gas pipelines, schools. The Soviet Union made Afghanistan a space country. One cosmonaut flew into space, one was a stunt double.”
And only the tenth point was our hostilities on the territory of Afghanistan. And in hostilities, too, you need to look, so to speak, at how forcefully and cruelly they were conducted.
That is, we immediately shared a piece of bread and went to fight with their parents. That is, war is also so ambiguous.
Itʼs like saying "the Russians built a beautiful new Drama Theater in Mariupol," but thereʼs a nuance — before that they destroyed it by dropping a bomb, killing hundreds of civilians and children there. And the new theater is very beautiful. But letʼs still find out why you said that the Ukrainian authorities are to blame for the war?
At that time, there was such a sharp Ukrainization that people perceived as pressure. Thatʼs why I said that there was no need to pressure. Those who want to, will switch to the Ukrainian language.
Moreover, in Donetsk there has never been any oppression of the Ukrainian language. I have never seen it. This is a multinational region. They started imposing some heroes there.
We are not against heroes. They do not need to be imposed.
But was the Russian language ever discriminated against in the Russian-speaking Donbas? Wasnʼt there ever an opportunity to study in Russian-language schools or at least learn Russian? But at the same time, you need to at least know Ukrainian. Well, how can you live in Ukraine and not know the state language?
I personally had Ukrainian language and literature. And so did Russian language and literature. That is, no one chose which was better. But in everyday life we spoke and thought in Russian.
And have you ever been forced to speak Ukrainian in everyday life? In everyday life, people communicate in whatever language they want. Look, these statements of yours that Ukraine started the war are either very bad political propaganda or a desire to win the votes of 222 people. But you couldnʼt help but know that it was not Ukraine that started the war in 2014. And it was not Ukraine that voluntarily gave Crimea to Russia.
Crimea is a separate story.
Letʼs not go into this now, because it will be a long discussion again.
You are absolutely right that Ukraine has not invaded anywhere. And the fact that Russia invaded Ukraine — you are 1 000% right.
Mission to Mariupol and negotiations at “Azovstal”
Letʼs talk about Mariupol. Spring 2022. Mariupol is surrounded. How did you appear in this story? You are not from Mariupol. You probably had...
I have a lot of friends there, and some who, by the way, helped me a lot in these events. My wife is Greek.
How was everything? Did someone call you and ask you to help evacuate people?
No, I called and asked. In April, I think I called General Kyrylo Budanov and said: "Kyrylo Oleksiyovych, there is a topic for conversation."
Did you just recruit Budanov? How do you know him?
I am a member of the Committee on National Security, Defense and Intelligence, we communicate within the framework of parliamentary activities. He says: "Come here."
Was that when you saw the first recordings from Mariupol, from “Azovstal”?
There was already a Drama Theater, there was a maternity hospital, unfortunately. The city was already being destroyed. Just as Grozny was once destroyed, so was Mariupol. The Russians bombed the city with all possible heavy bombs.
I arrived at Budanov, he received me, I said: “Look, I saw an appeal by the commander of ʼAzovʼ Prokopenko, where he appeals to all the world leaders — [Recep Tayyip] Erdogan, the Pope, UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres and others for help. I understand that the city is closed as much as possible and no one will ever fly there again.”
Moreover, from my channels I knew that the two missions that GUR sent there by helicopters were unsuccessful, two helicopters were shot down.
A few of them arrived...
And three of them arrived. Budanov asked what I wanted. I replied that there were children and civilian women there, and I was ready to go and save them. How I would get there was my headache. The main thing was that he helped me with my departure and legal status.
He said, “I don’t guarantee you a single percent of safety and I don’t understand how you would get there.”
I said, “By land.”
He asked for time. And the next day he invited me back. I suggested the following scheme: there was a big Christian holiday ahead — Easter — and I could go to the city with some humanitarian and pick up the children and women.
But, as far as I remember, the Russians blocked our humanitarian missions, the convoys could not pass.
You are absolutely right. If you allow me, I will come back to this a little later, separately. He [Budanov] asked if I could take the seriously wounded soldiers from there, from “Azovstal”.
I say: “I will negotiate.”
Because, unfortunately, before that there was the Ilyich, these are marines, they were already captured then, I would say.
This is [Volodymyr] Baranyuk, right?
Yes, their brigade commander Hero of Ukraine Baranyuk. He tried to maneuver between negotiations and breakthroughs, but somewhere someone miscalculated, and they were captured.
As far as I know, Baranyuk was captured in serious condition, wounded. He did not go into captivity with his own legs.
On May 8, 2022, Russian propaganda released a video of Volodymyr Baranyuk, claiming he had testified. Various “Azov” representatives hinted or directly stated that Baranyuk had fled and betrayed his oath.
And how many people went out with Baraniuk?
According to my information, 1 600 people were taken prisoner at that time. Up to 200 people broke through to “Azovstal” with [Serhiy] Volynsky, so, roughly speaking, Ilyichʼs plant was not destroyed and he was almost not injured.
Baranyuk was offered to surrender and promised to save his life. His deputy, if I remember correctly, shot the negotiators in the back. This is unacceptable according to the rules, but it was a fact. Everyone was on the edge.
Baranyuk didnʼt plan to surrender?
In my opinion, no.
You obviously have some connections in the Donetsk region. What is Baranyukʼs condition now? Serhiy Volynskyi said that he is in a bad state and is being prepared for trial.
According to my information, he is indeed in the Donetsk pre-trial detention center, is really not in the best shape and is very sick.
And the Donetsk pre-trial detention center is a terrible place.
A scary place. Itʼs located in the center of Donetsk. I was pulling an American citizen out of there.
So, can we assume that Baranyuk did not cooperate with the "DPR"?
According to my information, no. For this, he is tortured there, not treated, etc.
Letʼs go back. You want to go to Mariupol and take out all the civilians. And you are asked to take out the seriously wounded soldiers as well. Did you have guarantees from the Russians when you went there?
Yes.
Who and what guaranteed you? What can you say about this?
I recruited one of the members of our organization — Valentyn Viktorovich Kryzhanovsky. At that time, for his own reasons, he lived in Moscow. He is a Ukrainian colonel. Today, he is still a citizen of Ukraine.
In the summer of 2006, former SBU colonel Valentyn Kryzhanovsky left for Russia and received Russian citizenship. SBU claimed that he had worked for Russian intelligence services before.
The SBU colonel, right?
He served in SBU, and before that he served in GUR.
Yes, there was a high-profile case, litigation with [Viktor] Shokin, and then Valery Kryzhanovsky fled to Russia. And then there was the version that he was a Russian agent who served in all our intelligence services.
In 2022, there was a terrible story when his son was kidnapped. We helped find him. A sincerely pro-Ukrainian guy, he was for Ukraine, lived here, was not going anywhere, and I am sure that now he would stand in defense of Ukraine.
Who stole it?
As they say, I didnʼt hold a candle.
Interestingly: he is pro-Ukrainian, his father is pro-Russian, and lives in Russia at the beginning of a full-scale invasion.
Itʼs not a fact that heʼs pro-Russian. It just so happened that he was fleeing persecution. For a colonel to fight with a deputy prosecutor general is not the best format for a competition.
But there is always a chance to escape persecution, I donʼt know... to Germany, to Austria, but not to Russia.
Everyone flees to where they think it will be safer. We are all from the Soviet Union. I take my generation, I am almost 60 years old. I cannot erase this history from my life. Even if I wanted to, I cannot.
The son is pro-Ukrainian, and Kryzhanovsky, one might say, is fighting on the side of Russia. And where is the son now?
Kryzhanovsky is not fighting. His son is in Moscow.
Of course. He was pro-Ukrainian, now heʼs in Moscow.
He was handed over as part of a prisoner-for-prisoner exchange. Well, on the Ukrainian side they gave Kryzhanovskyʼs son, and on the other side they gave some person, I donʼt even understand who.
And you participated in this exchange. That is, in fact, Kryzhanovsky owed you for saving your son. So you called Kryzhanovsky and asked him what?
Kryzhanovsky is now a military pensioner. He is registered in Ukraine and has a Ukrainian passport.
I tell him that there is such a situation, there are children, there are women, letʼs save them. And you get a plus in karma, and I get a plus in karma. And there is another request from Kyrylo Oleksiyovych.
There are 37 seriously wounded soldiers. He is worried that we will take them out. He replied that it will probably be harder with the wounded, but he agreed. He then turned to his fellow villager, they have been friends for a very long time.
A fellow villager. So heʼs also from Ukraine?
Yes, he is from Vinnytsia too. Now he is a serving general, Hero of the Russian Federation. Kryzhanovsky explained the situation to him, then he explained it to someone else somewhere.
After all, at the time of my move to the other side, he had a letter signed by Putin in his hands stating that this mission should be skipped in order to save civilians and children.
So, in fact, Putin himself guaranteed you the move to the Russian side?
No. I am not familiar with Putin in any way, I have not communicated with him and have only seen him on TV.
If the letter saying you should be let through was signed by Putin...
This was a guarantee for Kryzhanovsky, who gave me a personal guarantee that “Oleksandr, if you have the courage to do so, come and take these people away.” That is, the letter was given to Kryzhanovsky.
How many of you went and what was the mission?
I asked Kyrylo Oleksiyovych: “Do you want us to pull the wounded out of Azovstal?” And how do you see it that the ʼDeenerivtsiʼ or Russian military will take the stretchers from the ʼAzovʼ fighters and carry the wounded themselves?”
We were leaving on the eve of Easter, so I suggested taking priests, but there are no questions for them. GUR then allocated five buses to me with “Everything Will Be Ukraine” packages, there were Easter cakes, etc. They gave us 43 or 45 priests. They are all from Zaporizhzhia, they gave us five ambulances, a car from the Ministry of Emergencies.
I have a friend and colleague Oleksandr Trukhin, a Peopleʼs Deputy from the "Servant of the People" party, in my opinion, a very decent guy. He gave me a minibus, money for gasoline, because there was a whole column going, we reached Zaporizhzhia. The priests held a night service there, because it was Easter, and in the morning we were supposed to cross the demarcation line in Vasylivka — the bridge there had been bombed. I contacted Valentin. He said: "There is a small problem, you will pass, but the whole column cannot." I explained that we have five humanitarian buses — Easter cakes, sweets, medicine, no weapons, no drugs, no alcohol, nothing. I said that the priests were with me to carry the stretchers, but he said that no more than ten could be taken. We took five humanitarian buses, ten priests, five ambulances, a car from the Ministry of Emergencies and my car, well, not mine, but Trukhinʼs, and drove to Vasylivka, where we were successfully fired upon. Our side.
Olksandr Kovalyov and Alexander Trukhin.
З особистого архіву Олександра Ковальова / «Бабель»
Are you saying that Budanov guaranteed you a trip?
I think he didnʼt control the entire front line. There was a representative from Kyrylo Alekseevich who also tried to leave with us, but he was not allowed through the post in Vasylivka. I was warned not to have any of the military there. In total, there were about 30 of us. The group of special forces, in principle, could change clothes.
Well, if priests were special forces, then yes.
They were looking for them, by the way, at checkpoints. We passed 22 checkpoints! And everyone was waiting for a special unit disguised as priests. And the funny thing is that no one had travel documents. That is, no passports, no documents. By the grace of God, we passed through like that.
Why didnʼt you take your passports? Were you told not to take them?
My boys and I had passports. But neither the doctors, nor the priests, nor anyone else had documents. I asked why they didnʼt take them, and they said: "We didnʼt think we would go beyond the front line."
So they werenʼt warned? Did all these people realize that they were risking their lives?
No, no one warned us. Before leaving for Vasylivka, two Grad installations overtook us. We positioned ourselves, fired full volleys and left. That is, according to the logic of things, in 10-15 minutes an artillery response should have arrived in our direction. I asked the representative of the GUR why they were doing this. He started calling somewhere, but there was almost no communication there. The GUR only gave me a satellite phone, which I did not use.
I went out to Valentyn, explained that a terrible mistake had been made, but I couldn’t help but go on. I asked him to persuade the army commander to give us 15-20 minutes to cross the front line. We were already talking on the radio, there was no normal communication. And he told me that I had exactly 15 minutes, during which no one would open fire. We drove off, went down to the ravine, which under normal conditions can be crossed in 10-15 minutes. But it was early spring, the buses sat on their bellies. We started to get the buses and got stuck for three and a half hours. Thanks to Valentyn — he persuaded not to shoot at us — we did arrive in Vasylivka, we had to spend the night somewhere.
Humanitarian aid being transported to Mariupol.
З особистого архіву Олександра Ковальова / «Бабель»
I have an old friend, a well-known person, I won’t name him because he chose Ukraine, and his relatives are in Mariupol, and the real estate is there. I called him, asked if I could come visit him. He says: “Of course.” And I say that I’m visiting Mariupol. He asked if I had gone crazy. As a result, we arrived near Mariupol in Shyrokyne. We passed 22 checkpoints without documents. All this time, Valentin ran out at each checkpoint, called some phones, showed some papers that the column had been agreed upon, it was humanitarian, not military. It is his merit that we passed. In the morning we left for Mariupol and met with General [Andriy] Sichev with the call sign “Don”, he was responsible for the capture of Mariupol at that time, he was acting. commander of the 8th Army, because the commander was shot in the back and wounded at the Ilyich factory. The roads were blocked by shelling, the Sichovy chased us all over Mariupol — sometimes we drove from Mangush, then from the other side. We still couldnʼt get through.
Was the city being shelled at that time?
Of course. I have a video — when we drove into the city, it was in a very sad state, destroyed, everything was on fire, there were corpses lying on the streets. I have never seen Mariupol like this in my life and I don’t want to see it like this again. It was scary. We drove in on the third attempt, it was the embankment, the southern side of Azovstal, by the sea. They demined the field for us with an armored personnel carrier. We were negotiating 200 meters from the Azovstal fence. These were the first negotiations with Prokopenko about him starting to hand over children, women and 37 wounded to us. And we had to give him medicine in return. They were very difficult negotiations, emotionally and physically.
You and Prokopenko? Why? He didnʼt trust you?
Yes, with him. Maybe he didnʼt trust him.
Did Budanov warn him somehow?
Budanov warned him that MP Kovalev would be there, they determined the call signs, how to call each other on the radio. In the video, Prokopenko appealed to everyone: at least someone come and help people, children, civilians, etc. At least someone. And when we found ways and means to get to the surrounded Mariupol, risking our lives and getting there, we couldnʼt call each other, so he said that we had come to the wrong place.
Then he determined the evacuation location. I asked Valentyn for an armored vehicle to personally inspect the place, to see if buses and ambulances could get there. It was completely bombed, littered with concrete and brick fragments, we barely got there in the armored vehicle. I told Denis that evacuation from there was impossible. We went to another location. We were in the shelling zone, although their commander of the 8th Army was already with us, the heads of the engineering service, and intelligence — and they were still flying there. Nothing worked that day. We were placed in a filtration camp in Bezimenne. The next day at six in the morning we called the Don and went to a new location, where the prisoners were later transferred.
Humanitarian mission.
How many did you take?
We didnʼt take anyone on the first mission. We didnʼt agree. We stood for five days under the walls of Azovstal, no one gave us anyone, and we decided to leave Mariupol.
Who didnʼt give it? They didnʼt come out?
They didnʼt come out, right?
And the Russians didnʼt interfere?
No, they did everything to get us there, and we waited there 24/7, we organized a daytime ceasefire. And at night, of course, there was shelling, and at night there was a strong war. But it was possible to do it during the day.
You couldnʼt contact Budanov there?
There was no communication at all. The satellite phone didnʼt help much either. On the first mission, we had no communication at all, so I made all the decisions. They didnʼt give us anyone, I decided to leave.
Why didnʼt they give it to you? Are you hinting at something?
I have my version. No one expected us to break through. If we break through, we will be in the media. The Russians will say that they gave 100 children and 300 women, 37 wounded to the humanitarian convoy there. They will interview me. Maybe someone saw a political competitor in me. Maybe there was another reason.
What happened next?
At that time, Iryna Vereshchukʼs column was standing in Vasylivka and for about the tenth or twelfth time she tried to drive through to pick up people who wanted to leave for the Ukrainian side. I asked Valentyn that we would hand over some of the medicines to Azovstal, and he would take the Vereshchuk column just as he took us. Thatʼs what he did. He took us to Vasylivka, we went to the "gray" zone, he started the Vereshchuk column, which was waiting for some kind of permission from the Red Cross. Although, in my opinion, the Red Cross didnʼt help at all — zero. I can tell you about this separately in the Olenivka episode. Yes, thanks to us, children and women were saved.
Humanitarian mission in Russian-bombed Mariupol. Video from the channel of Russian propagandist Alexander Sladkov. Since 2022, he has been a member of Putinʼs mobilization working group. He is under EU sanctions.
З особистого архіву Олександра Ковальова / «Бабель»
And how many were taken out?
Well, everyone. There were over 100 children and about 300 civilian women. We gave this palm to her.
What happened next?
We arrived, I met with General Budanov, explained the situation to him, told him my version of what I had seen. I am sure that Prokopenko told him his version. He had his own, third version. But at the meeting he asked me to go there again to discuss the surrender of the military at Azovstal. I dialed the same channels, said that there was such a proposal. I said that I could come, we would seek an understanding. And in early May we had our second mission to Azovstal to negotiate with Prokopenko about the format of the surrender.
Kirill Alekseevich asked me to take with him a representative of the GUR, Colonel [Dmitry] Usov (he is now the secretary of the Coordination Headquarters for the exchange of prisoners). I promised that not a hair would fall from his head in that territory.
We were traveling along the same route. At the crossing, the first deputy chief of the GRU General Staff [Vladimir] Alekseev, Valentin, and other people in civilian and military uniform who did not introduce themselves came to meet us. This column escorted us to Bezimenne. But this time we were not placed in tents, but at a recreation center. The Russians set up their headquarters there, satellite dishes, etc. There, our negotiations took place about how the guys should be taken prisoner.
Who participated in the negotiations?
On our side were me and Colonel Usov, we went, we also took Denis Prokopenko. On the other side were two representatives of the GRU of the General Staff — they were Zorin and Alekseev. Another one was General Oleksiy Pavlovich or Petrovich — I don’t remember, and Valentin. There were four of them and three of us. That’s it.
How did the negotiations go?
Very calm, non-aggressive, maybe unconstructive, but maybe I want a lot in this life.
Negotiations with the Russians at
“Azovstal”.
З особистого архіву Олександра Ковальова / «Бабель»
And why unconstructively? Didnʼt they agree on anything?
No, why? To all the questions that Denys Prokopenko asked, he received answers: where they would live, how they would evacuate, that no one would harass anyone for their tattoos, how our humanitarian mission could visit them, etc.
What conditions were agreed upon then? Where were our soldiers supposed to go?
The Ukrainian side came with its plan. They asked that the prisoners be taken to the territory of the nuclear power plant in Zaporizhia. This idea was immediately categorically rejected, since it is a nuclear facility. We took a break. And Alekseev asked me, as a local, what and how I saw it. At that time, it was already known that our marines were sent to Makeyevka to colony No. 32. There are also colonies in Shakhtarsk, Torez, Yenakievo. I said that if we were going to make a humanitarian convoy, the closest would be Marinka and Olenivka — only ten kilometers away. He replied that Marinka was in the shelling zone, fighting was ongoing for it. I suggested that we make arrangements to make Marinka a humanitarian zone, and we would come to Olenivka, in agreement with them, to see how they could possibly bring some food, hygiene products, etc. And in principle, we agreed on this on our word of honor. Alekseev was personally the guarantor of our safety and gave no reason to doubt his words.
On February 6, an attempt was made on Alekseev in Moscow. The FSB blames Ukrainian special services for the attack. On the same day, Denis Prokopenko wrote a post in which he recalled that it was Alekseev who guaranteed decent conditions for the soldiers at Azovstal after their capture and that the Russians would abide by the Geneva Convention. Instead, the Azov soldiers were regularly tortured, starved, and denied medical treatment.
What did Prokopenko say about this?
He was convinced that their captivity would not last long, that it was better to surrender and save his life. He was offered to go talk to others — there were more than two thousand of them, families. When asked how long the captivity would last, he was told that it would be three or four months. Thatʼs where this figure came from. But I emphasize: no one kept any paper records. There is only one audio recording of all the negotiations, and it is with the Russian side.
After that, we took Prokopenko to the Azovstal bunker. He went to report to his contacts in Kyiv, while Alekseev and Zorin went to report to Moscow.
What was the finale of this meeting?
We agreed on a peaceful exit from Azovstal and that there would only be a filtering for weapons, no one would push anyone, as was the case with the marines, who immediately hospitalized the wounded and sick. The Olenivka colony was thawed, it had not worked for five or six years. Mattresses, bedding, and food were brought there overnight. The head of the Moscow FSVP was invited to monitor the situation. And it was decided to place all our prisoners of war in Olenivka.
Kovalyov visited Olenivka when the captured "Azovians" were first brought there. He says that the conditions they were shown and guaranteed were acceptable at the time.
З особистого архіву Олександра Ковальова / «Бабель»
And were there guarantees that they would not be beaten upon surrender, that there would be no further torture?
Yes, and we adhered to that. Everything we agreed on at the table was fulfilled at that time.
But then there were the murders in the colony...
There were. Thatʼs another story.
Wait, you mean the Russians promised not to torture until a certain point? Was there a deadline?
There were no deadlines. While I was involved in the negotiations, everything was coming together and everyone trusted each other. And then, for some reason, in the summer of 2022, I was removed from the negotiating team. We were the last to exchange the Americans, and no one saw me again.
But after the military left Azovstal, you still traveled to the occupied territory.
Yes, to Olenivka and to hospital No. 17. I am the only one who got to Olenivka. The Russians helped me then too. And I am the only one who took with me the representatives of the Red Cross, who in 10 years had never been to our prisoners of war. After me, they were also not allowed to go to Olenivka. I asked the new director of the colony to take a woman with me, because I wanted to check the womenʼs barracks, but I have no right to go there — my faith does not allow me.
In the first days, a representative of the Red Cross arrived in Olenivka.
З особистого архіву Олександра Ковальова / «Бабель»
Are you Muslim?
Yes. Well, there are certain etiquettes, rules. And it was a little trick. I asked to let my assistant and two representatives of the Red Cross in — one of them a Russian-speaking woman. Thatʼs how the Red Cross ended up in Olenivka.
You say that no agreements were violated. So what were the obligations of the Russian side then?
The Russian side gave a personal, manly promise that they would launch rubber convoys to the places where our prisoners of war are being held. I have a video recording where I clearly state that our president will never leave you in trouble in his life. I told [our soldiers] this. And it is recorded three times on the recording. We agreed that at the request of our guys, we would bring them fresh clothes to Olenivka, because they did not want to be in the uniform of Russian prisoners. This was agreed, only the clothes had to be without chevrons. We were supposed to bring them bed linen. There is a video where they ask to bring cigarettes, medicines. At our request, they even sawed off the bars in the Olenivka colony. In addition, Dmitry Sergeevich Usov asked me to create some kind of channel so that we could roughly control and know the inner life in Olenivka. I asked the priests — there was a small church in the colony — to visit it once every two weeks with humanitarian aid packages and letters. Everyone else was refused, the priests were allowed with the only condition that they not film. But as soon as I was removed from the negotiation process and the exchange, it all fell apart.
Are you saying that the conditions of detention in Olenivka were normal?
Prepared, yes.
Okay, they prepared, they showed, and then completely different processes began. The Russians promised one thing and traditionally did another, and in the end they killed the prisoners in Olenivka.
I am not a lawyer for the Russians, may God judge them. I just want to be fair in the facts. Everything we talked about on May 9, 2022 in the presence of Denys Prokopenko, they did, even more. There was a humanitarian evacuation. No one hit anyone in the head with rifle butts. They immediately provided medical assistance. They actually conducted light filtration. I even recorded it on video — they allowed me to.
Then the people were placed in Olenivka according to our agreement. We planned Olenivka and agreed that we would make this place a humanitarian zone, not a military one. It was supposed to be a humanitarian corridor, where we were supposed to go with humanitarian missions. The same Trukhin bought four trucks of everything that was necessary. And they were ready to transport it. But they did not let us go.
Why?
Someone saw us as competitors.
Who?
You know perfectly well who.
Not Budanov, obviously. You gave us this document. Budanov on February 15, 2023, that is, more than half a year later, addresses the Speaker of the Parliament Stefanchuk and says that you risked your life, went through combat formations, broke through to Azovstal, and so on, and so on... and asks to nominate you for a state award. So who, Zelensky?
God forbid. I am sure that Volodymyr Oleksandrovych does not know even ten percent of the truth about this story. I can appeal to him: let us continue to save people, and you will see the result.
On July 29, 2022, a terrorist attack took place in Olenivka — a targeted killing of our military. Why did this happen? Due to the fault of some specific people? Perhaps the Russians planned this terrorist attack right away?
I donʼt know. I know that a great tragedy happened. At the request of Kirill Alekseevich, I sent people to that area to check all the hospitals, infirmaries, morgues, where our dead guys were taken. I collected this information piece by piece and gave it to Kirill Alekseevich. But by then we had talked less, and they asked me for something less. Thatʼs why I didnʼt go myself.
Olenivka colony in a satellite photo. The building in the industrial zone where the soldiers died is marked in red. In total, at least 53 prisoners were killed and over 130 were injured. The Russians did not claim responsibility for this terrorist attack and blamed Ukraine for it.
Negotiation platform in the UAE
It is known that many Ukrainians are currently being held in Chechnya, and the conditions there are terrible. Have you been involved in attempts to return them?
There are now over two hundred people there. No one has asked me to deal with prisoners anymore since the end of 2022. Individual people ask me to find someone there — regardless of whether it is the Office of the President, the Cabinet of Ministers, the Verkhovna Rada, or ordinary people. When they reach a dead end, they ask me for some reason. Today, there is a platform in the Emirates, where our prisoners are currently being exchanged. I created it.
I think you are a member of the group for relations with the UAE in the Verkhovna Rada?
So, when we were talking about how to further extract the prisoners, I told Kirill Alekseevich that I knew about certain relations of someone in the Emirates from the Russian Federation. I said that we would save the lives of the prisoners from Azovstal and exchange them in the UAE. It is a neutral country. He asked why the UAE. Because they have their own relations with the Russians. I suggested to Budanov that we go there and I introduce him. It would be a wonderful, proper platform, which, by the way, is still working.
Are you saying that you brought him to this site in the Emirates?
Yes, I have very old connections there. I knew this person [contact in the Emirates] from his early activities. We werenʼt always at war with the Russian Federation. We all had some kind of relationship before that. All Ukrainian politicians went to pay homage to the Russian Federation. No matter how much we didnʼt want to, itʼs true.
The UAE appeared even earlier, when we were getting 113 Ukrainians out of "Covid captivity". Our tourists were blocked at the airport in the UAE, and there was no way to take them out, because the Emirates went into strict quarantine. I asked for help from my friend, whom I have known for over 25 years. He equipped us with 11 tons of humanitarian cargo at his own expense, paid for the plane, took 113 people on board and sent me to Ukraine. There is a video.
Who is this person?
I have known this person for a very long time. He once came to Ukraine for work. Today, in the Verkhovna Rada, I am the head of friendship groups with the Arab Emirates, Jordan, Kuwait, and Bahrain. For me, the Middle East is an open book. I don’t go to Europe, I don’t go to America, I don’t go into negotiations there. Today, our effectiveness comes through the UAE. And I am very grateful to the people who are negotiating there.
So, through this friend, you brought Budanov to the negotiating table in the UAE?
Yes, and you ask why the negotiations are not taking place in Geneva, not in Brussels, where did the Emirates come from? They shouldnʼt have been there at all. The Arabs treat us, well, like tourists, no more. The Arab world is very peculiar.
But then the Azov commanders were released not through the UAE, but through Turkey.
Through Turkey, of course. There were other negotiators, I wasnʼt there.
On July 8, 2023, the commander of the "Azov" Hero of Ukraine Denys Prokopenko (left of the president), his deputy Svyatoslav Palamar (first from the right), the acting commander of the 36th separate marine brigade Serhiy Volynskyi (right of the president), senior officer of the "Azov" Oleh Khomenk0 (second from the left), and the commander of the 12th brigade of the National Guard Denys Shleha (third from the left) returned to Ukraine from Turkey. They had been in Turkey since September 2022.
Is it possible to somehow intensify the exchange process now?
Of course. I could be wrong and Iʼm sure there will be a lot of criticism after this interview is released, but I believe that the military shouldnʼt be talking about the negotiation process. There shouldnʼt be aggression against each other. People who are not involved in the war should participate in the negotiations.
Are you talking about yourself?
No. Maybe thereʼs someone better than me, smarter or more literate. But so far, no one has done what Iʼve done.
You were silent for a long time. You were asked for interviews a lot after the CNN article — both by Ukrainian and Western media.
Yes, for example the BBC.
And we wrote to you then too. Why did you decide to speak out now?
There is no person in Ukraine that I would not ask to allow me to go to the territory of the Russian Federation with a humanitarian mission. I have peopleʼs deputies who are willing to pay their money, buy uniforms, buy underwear, buy everything necessary. But to this day there has not been a single humanitarian mission, and I have been asking for it for four years.
And where exactly do you want to go?
To Chechnya. We got on and left right away. There are over 200 people there.
Are you not being released by the Ukrainian side?
This is not the function of a peopleʼs deputy. Today I would like to address the head of our country. Be not just a president, be also the savior of these people. And they will pray for you forever.
Kovalyov posted on his Facebook page an appeal from Ukrainian prisoners held in Chechnya. In the video, they say that there are 192 of them and that the Chechen side is ready to exchange them for captured servicemen from Chechnya, in particular members of the “Akhmat” group. This unit is involved in the murders, torture, and rape of Ukrainians in various regions of Ukraine.
Look, when you went to Azovstal, you were also a peopleʼs deputy, and that was not your function. If you look at it from the other side, in order to get people out of modern Chechnya, which is certainly an enemy, they can ask us for something that ordinary people donʼt know about, and it can be something very significant.
They only ask me to do what is reasonable. If we exchange, then a soldier for a soldier, an officer for an officer. Sometimes I ask, according to our traditions, as a sign of respect, for example, to give away the sick. Today, unfortunately, a guy with stage four cancer is dying in Chechnya. No one can help him, because there are no such medicines there. Unfortunately, one has already died, and I showed in what conditions he died. I was ready to go to the Rostov, Donetsk, and Luhansk prisons, where our prisoners of war are held. This is my risk zone. There are peopleʼs deputies — Trukhin or the [Vadym] Stolar Foundation — they are ready to provide humanitarian aid. We are not asking for anything from the state, we are only asking for help. And we would save many more people.
Wait, you say that you were removed from the negotiations at the end of 2022, and the terrorist attack in Olenivka occurred in the summer of 2022...
Yes, but then I didnʼt communicate anymore. Yes, I counted, refined, and returned the last "Azovtsev" from captivity, who lived on my territory for six months.
On the territory of what?
In Mariupol. Then a cool movie came out about some "Azovite" going out for eight months through fields, meadows, etc. In fact, this guy lived at my house. And only in November did we return him to Ukraine.
Where is your house in Mariupol?
I donʼt have it. My friend does. Moreover, when we returned Joshua Jones, the US State Department posted on its page [on social networks] gratitude to Ukraine for our actions. For our actions.
You say that you are not allowed to participate in exchanges. Medvedchuk was once also involved in exchanges here, and at the same time he worked for the Kremlin all the time, harming Ukraine. Perhaps the authorities have the same fears about you?
Medvedchuk came after me, in 2014. The guys from Volodymyrska Street, 33, told me that I had to leave because there would be two people in charge — the president [Petro Poroshenko] and Medvedchuk.
From Volodymyrska, that is, from the SBU?
Yes, I left then, but before that I saved 50 people. Now I am admitted to state secrets. I have been a peopleʼs deputy for seven years. My actions bring only benefit and no harm.
But you had direct contact with Budanov. Budanov wrote about your courage and asked to award you. Can you go to him now and tell him that?
Kirill Alekseevich knows my abilities and skills very well. He probably doesnʼt need them today.
Today (February 16) before our meeting, it became known about the assassination attempt on Vladimir Alekseev, whom you mentioned. He survived. They say that it is bad for the peace talks if they hang it on us. Someone writes that he was connected to Prigozhin, and the Kremlin is cleaning its tails. What do you think?
You are right when you say that there is a great threat of escalation in the negotiation process. The fact that the Russians are cleaning their tails — well, let them sort things out in their own kitchen.
I think that they will definitely blame us for this, although it is not beneficial for Ukraine. I know from my Arab colleagues how the negotiations in Abu Dhabi were going. Some kind of understanding is already being established there. That is, the attempt on Alekseev is a wrong act. If there is a third party — and I think there is one — they did such a disgusting thing to us that we did not agree on anything. That is why I say that people who are involved in the war should not participate in the negotiation process. Two military leaders who are fighting against each other, first of all, feel hatred for each other.