“When the state blow it off, a memorial appears on the Maidan. When it imitates the activity, then Yahidne appears.” Maksym Yeligulashvili talks about memory and the problems of memorialization

1

You suggested starting to talk about memorialization from the Independence Square. We wrote a long text about the peopleʼs memorial from the flags on the Square. You were one of the experts we talked to, and you said that in this way people are trying to soothe the pain, and the authorities are not helping because they are afraid. Do you have anything to add to this?

We default to blaming the authorities, but a block from Maidan is the Ukrainian House, where the experience of war is systematically reinterpreted in the form of art.

Why donʼt artists who produce meanings walk 100 meters to Maidan and help reinterpret it?

Simple things can be done right now: sketch the geography of this place, make a list of the names of the dead, design flags, and brigade markings. Find art forms to help people in their desire to soothe their pain. There is a consensus in society that we should honour, but in general, everyone doesnʼt give a damn about memorialization, except for small groups of victims.

There is an opinion that it is too early to put the memorial on the Maidan in order, the families of the deceased will not accept it. Maybe we should wait?

Historians say that to work with spontaneous memorialization, we need to wait 40-50 years, then it wonʼt hurt so much. Okay, but now we need to create a framework that we preserve to pass on to the future. Graffiti with Lesya Ukrainka, Ivan Franko, and Taras Shevchenko from the time of the Revolution of Dignity has been erased. Everything else will be erased in the same way. The day will come when the flags will be removed from the Maidan, but they definitely shouldnʼt disappear.

The Law on Memorialization does not regulate these issues, and the expert community is afraid to delve into a complex topic. Each natural disaster memorial requires its own approach. In Vinnytsia, they tried to do something with flags, but people didnʼt like it.

There are two national memorials in Vinnytsia. This one is on European Square.

The second memorial was erected on Shevchenko Square near the Wall of Remembrance for fallen soldiers.

2

A 10-minute walk from Maidan is another memorial — in honour of Kyiv citizens who died for the integrity and independence of Ukraine. Next to it is the Lobanovsky Stadium, the Ukrainian House, and the house on which graffiti with Lesya Ukrainka was painted. This is the central street of Kyiv — Hrushevskoho Street — thousands of people drive along it every day, but only a few know that there is a memorial here. Is that why you wanted us to come here and talk about it?

The memorial was opened in 2021, there is a sign “At the initiative of Mayor Klitschko”, but there are no names of those who died. There are no flowers and flags here. People do not visit it because they feel manipulated. It is a “dead” memorial.

The inscription “At the initiative of Klitschko” is blasphemy, but here the municipal services mow the grass, but on the Maidan they do not. This is the approach of the Kyiv authorities to memorialization.

But if we go to Klitschko now and ask what kind of crap this is, a bunch of lawyers will appear to explain about the territory, responsibility, budgets, and concepts.

The Revolution of Dignity was 11 years ago, and we still donʼt have a full-fledged memorial, they havenʼt built one. If you walk along Hrushevskoho and Instytutska, where people were shot, youʼll see a pit, motankas, ribbons at the places where people died — a cacophony.

This is our reality, where the issue of memory exists outside the attention of the state, except for those moments when this memory is used in elections as a mobilization resource.

This is the problem with spontaneous memory: when the focus of public attention disappears, memorialization often becomes a hostage to the crazy and manipulators.

You say how wrong everything is happening here. But what is Ukrainian memorialization? And how to do it correctly?

For me, memorialization is trying to find everyone and restore everything. But Jews, for example, understand that this will not work, so they are looking for different ways to honour. Our problem is that we want everything at once and to be correct, and this is impossible.

We must realize that now memorialization is a tactical decision to hold out until the end of the war. Memorialization is not about remembering, but about mourning, naming names, recording crimes. It gives a sense of justice — I can’t reach the court, but I can at least say it out loud, put up a flag, hang a memorial plaque.

Personally, I may not like what is happening with the flags on the Maidan, but if a loved one asks me to go there and put up a portrait, I will do it, because this is a moment of experiencing trauma.

When we talk about memorialization strategically, it is not about the number of future monuments and memorials, not about their appearance and where they should be. We cannot predict this, because while the war is ongoing, there are questions that have no answers.

For example, what to do with the monuments that the occupation authorities have been erecting since 2014?

Perhaps when the cities are deoccupied, these monuments will not be there, because they physically will not withstand the shelling or the Russians will take them away, as they stole the monuments from Kherson when they fled. But in Donetsk there is an alley dedicated to Ukrainian children who died during the war, and you cannot take the alley to Russia.

We will have to think about what to do with it, how to rethink it, because children have been dying in the war since 2014.

While this uncertainty exists, we need to focus on something else — not set traps for the future. For example, Iʼm talking about the competition of memory: some people are remembered, some are forgotten. Rules are needed so that itʼs not like whoever painted the mural first gets the wall.

During the Soviet era, there was a war memorialization, its rules were inherited by us. After Independence, we used these rules, although they were a tool that Russia used against us. We did not develop our own memorialization rules until we reached the limit — 2014. Why havenʼt we been engaged in memorialization and rethinking since the 1990s?

In Soviet times, censorship allowed us to commemorate, but “correctly”. You can remember World War II, that is, the “great patriotic war”, but not the Holocaust. The Soviet approach to commemorating the war was reduced to some monumental “motherland” without specific names and providing benefits for utilities, housing, and recreation. We inherited this. We also inherited the diaspora, which restored historical continuity — returned those who were in exile to the Ukrainian context.

In the 1990s, there was a huge demand for work with memory — the Holodomor, the Holocaust, the Chornobyl tragedy. Mega-proactive diasporas wanted to create something here, but we treated it with fear, the Soviet past weighed on us. And all this was superimposed on the economic crisis, which overshadowed all other challenges.

Chornobyl began to be remembered not as a crime against humanity, but as a man-made disaster for which benefits are provided. We still live in this ambivalence and somewhere recreate the Soviet approach with benefits. We want to do it in a new way, but we canʼt.

Is international experience relevant for us?

The uniqueness of the Ukrainian context is that we are doing this before the war is over. We have a communication gap between those who create policies, produce meanings, and experience grief.

Here in Vinnytsia, a monument was erected to those who died during the missile attack near the Officersʼ Building. The city authorities launched a series of meetings with the families of the deceased, where they discussed what the memorial should be like. People replied that they wanted pigeons with portraits of their relatives.

What else could they say?

People have no sense of humour. The bearers of experience — families — must be involved in the memorialization, this is the principle of participation, but people need to be helped. Collect their wishes and give them to those who create meaning, not literally reproduce them.

The memorial in Vinnytsia is lost in the square among large buildings and roads, but it is a peopleʼs monument. People go there, it is theirs, and in Zaporizhzhia the opposite situation is true. They built a monument to the fallen soldiers there, aesthetically it may be perceived better than in Vinnytsia, but the families of the fallen learned about its opening from the news and that the names of their relatives were on it.

Of course, they were outraged. The family has the right to control the memory of themselves. Officials made the decision from the mountain and are wondering why no one is happy.

The same with the monument to [Oleksandr] Macievsky in Nizhyn. They erected a sculpture to a specific person, but in honour of all the fallen residents of the city. The relatives of the deceased were explained this by saying that Macievsky is a symbol. And the other deceased, so they are not symbols?

Memorialization has become an extremely difficult task for communities, even toxic. Conflicts must be constantly resolved. Everyoneʼs nerves are exposed, and people in grief are not always physically able to shake it off.

The memorial in Vinnytsia was opened in 2023 in honor of those killed in the missile attack. It features 29 doves surrounded by 29 cherry blossoms.

vezha.ua

In Nizhyn, the memorial complex "To the Heroes-Defenders of Ukraine", where the central figure is a monument to Macievsky, was built with private money. An art competition was not held. The creation of a memorial with a sculpture of Macievsky was suggested to the mayor by former Deputy Minister of Internal Affairs Anton Herashchenko.

uifuture.org

The monument in Zaporizhzhia is an installation in honor of the fallen soldiers, "The Tree of Memory". It is made of metal pipes that form a chime — an echo of the voices of the deceased. On the pipes are the names of the soldiers. The tree symbolizes the landing in which the soldiers die. The author of the idea is Dmytro Kostyuminsky, a current soldier and former theater director.

Dmytro Smolienko / «Бабель»

Why do scandals around memorialization arise in many cities, but not in Lviv? They developed the design of a military necropolis, memorial plaques on buildings in a single style, and the townspeople stop for a moment of silence.

In Lviv, the rules of memorialization were developed before the invasion — identity, strategy, different approaches. There is a more conscious policy in this area. Local authorities interact with the population, and there are people from the public who are eager to do this. There were stickers about a minute of silence at every step in the city — a simple reminder, but no activist would have achieved this without the support of the administration.

I am not drowning for [Lviv Mayor] Andriy Sadovyi. Previous mayors did the same thing, they paid attention to the issue of memorialization. They devoted a lot of time to honouring the repressed participants of the UN-UPA movement, to Ukrainian-Polish relations.

There were painful issues that they worked on for years. An ecosystem gradually formed in which they know how to talk about complex things. This did not happen in Kyiv.

This is a city that belongs to everyone and to no one.

3

We have reached Askoldʼs Grave, the third and final stop on our route through the city, which you have put together to show the problems of memorialization. Why are we here?

Askoldʼs Grave as a national space is a vivid example of our inability to restore order. Everything is in disarray here and no one is responsible. There are stops of Christ in the park and icons hung on trees. Along one of the paths, “Oschadbank” installed plaques for its employees who died after 2022.

Whether other banks can put up such plaques is an unanswered question. I looked for written rules for this place and did not find any.

There are also plaques here about those who died near Kruty, a little bit about the UPA, then the Revolution of Dignity and the modern war. Around the church are fresh military burials. And next to the graves is a plaque "Archaeological monument, cultural layer of the village of Uhorske".

I donʼt know how you can bury in the cultural layer?

Ask anyone why there is a cemetery with modern graves here, no one will tell you, except for the priest of the church and the relatives of those who were buried.

There is also a memorial to those who died in Ilovaisk. It also does not have the names of the soldiers, and the QR code that should lead to the Book of Remembrance does not work. Although Ilovaisk is the greatest military tragedy until 2022.

Look, there are flowers on all the fresh graves, people come here, itʼs important to them. When we talk about visibility, we canʼt create a military necropolis just outside the city. Talks about creating a necropolis on Askoldʼs Grave have been going on for over 10 years, and the authorities are doing nothing, so people started doing something themselves. But when there are no rules, space falls into the trap of chaos.

The press service of the Kyiv City State Administration responded to Babel’s request that the Askold’s Grave park is a local monument and is also included in the State Register of Immovable Monuments of Ukraine as an archaeological monument of national importance. The territory is maintained by Kyiv’s municipal services “Zelenbud”. The park is protected by law from development, destruction, etc. The Kyiv City State Administration does not know why military personnel were buried there after 2014. They “lack information about the regulatory documents in accordance with which burials are carried out”.

Perhaps one of the problems with memorialization is that everyone is involved in it in their own way. Commissions in local councils do something, departments of ministries get involved somewhere. Why isnʼt there a single organization that would develop policies, rules, mechanisms and be responsible for them? For example, the Institute of National Remembrance could do this.

Yes, we need a single institution that will develop the rules and ensure their continuity. But we also need to cooperate with business, which has a great demand for memorialization.

Honouring is not only about memorials, but also about supporting families, a social component, scholarships, and sports. Veterans constantly talk about sports — itʼs about restoring the body, social ties, and adapting after the front.

At the Kyiv Marathon, each kilometer is named after a deceased person, and their names are called during the race. Before the start, there is a countdown for those who will never run.

Imagine, after a minute of silence, a crowd of thousands counts: "Nine, eight, seven..."

I had goosebumps running when I was there. Itʼs a simple and very human thing. Who knows about it, except for runners? The Kyiv City State Administration does not allow the marathon to be made visible, because it is too much for it to block the city center once a year — run somewhere where you canʼt be seen.

Are there other examples of commemoration that are not related to monuments and memorials?

We have gardens of memory. In Irpin, people say that it is important for them to plant something with their own hands in memory of their loved ones. In the Chernihiv region, the mother of a fallen soldier planted a garden in the village where her son grew up — there are cherry blossoms, magnolias, maples.

This is a very beautiful approach, about life and eternity. But it is necessary to record it so that descendants will continue to take care of the gardens when we are gone.

Spontaneous memorials appear at the sites of rocket attacks. People bring flowers, toys, and personal belongings of the dead. Then municipal workers throw it away. Why donʼt the artifacts end up in local museums?

Some museums collect it, but in general, no, because they didnʼt think about it, they werenʼt interested. The main focus of attention is on military equipment, because this is a classic Soviet idea of what a museum should be interested in when it comes to war. Tanks, not people.

In Dnipro, the disaster memorial near a high-rise building was vandalized and set on fire several times, and the municipal workers threw everything away. But people are restoring it.

The question arises of how to preserve the disaster memorial and who should do it. For example, it can be covered with a glass box: things will not spoil, and we will have time to think about what to do next.

In Sumy, at the site of the missile attack on Palm Sunday, there is still a makeshift memorial made of toys and flowers. The city authorities reported a competition to build a permanent memorial at the site of the attack.

Among the projects, there are two ideas that I like. For example, to make a flower bed with flowers and to mark the potholes from the shelling on the road with polymer material. This is a tactile thing that works well in memorialization — to touch, to feel, to remember.

A memorial in Sumy at the site of the missile strike. People brought childrenʼs toys, soccer balls, anime, and postcards in memory of the 35 victims.

Ganna Mamonova / "Babel"

One-year-old Kira Rudykaʼs scooter at the site of a missile strike in Sumy. The child, her mother, and her sister miraculously survived. The photo of the scooter was shared on social media as an illustration of Russiaʼs war on children.

Personal archives / Babel

The scooter is so memorable to the residents of Sumy that there are proposals to recreate it — to put it at the site of the missile strike in memory of the dead. But the authors of the idea call the scooter a "bicycle", and Kiraʼs mother Viktoria Rudyka is against the monument. She says it will traumatize her daughters, and the scooter cannot be a symbol of the dead, because they survived. It is a symbol of the living.

Ganna Mamonova / "Babel"

4

When we talk about memorialization, we mostly think of the military, but entire cities disappear. Colleagues from Mariupol say that they have nowhere to go in Kyiv to honour the tens of thousands of Mariupol residents killed by the Russians.

The main emphasis is on the military, because it is a question of the price they pay — their lives. We will still have to realize the losses of civilians. And phenomena are also disappearing — Greek villages in the Donetsk region, the Askania-Nova reserve in the Kherson region. This cannot be restored.

We cannot get to this, because this is occupied territory. We do not have a “stop” point: the tragedy of the Revolution of Dignity was supplanted by the occupation of Crimea and the east, then the invasion began. As a society, we do not physically ride it out.

For example, I donʼt go through the train station now, although it used to be my route from home to work. I feel uncomfortable because they loudly turn on a minute of silence. I have developed my own protocol of actions and at the train station I see how my protocol conflicts with what is happening around me.

Because people donʼt stop?

At the station, they offer me the official program of a minute of silence, which is very out of sync with mine. You know, itʼs a bit of a compulsion for the senses. My parents from Kherson once came to see me and wanted to go to Instytutska, and then I realized that I had been avoiding this place from the Revolution of Dignity. It hurts too much. Maybe someone has repressed the pain, so they donʼt stop for a minute of silence.

And they tell them: "No, no, stop and think, and then go to work." And youʼll destroy yourself morally at this point.

Donʼt talk down on people. Everyone builds a line that they donʼt cross in order to bring about war. In fact, society has a limited resource — the war has been going on for twelve years. Experiencing someone elseʼs experience is a difficult thing.

So much so that in Yahidne people have to say that every basement is different, and theirs is something unique in its horror. Only a few years have passed, and their experience is being undermined.

Everything is based on peopleʼs initiative in Yahidne. The keys to the basement are with the guard who takes guests there. Everything there is moldy and deteriorating. If childrenʼs drawings that children made when the Russians held them by force fall apart in the basement along with the plaster, will we restore them? Will we hang a photo and say: "Thatʼs how it was"?

When the state blow it off, a memorial appears on the Maidan. When it imitates the activity, then Yahidne appears.