Ninety scientists from all over the world are rethinking and writing a new history of Ukraine in three million words. What it will be like — tells the ideologue of the project, historian Timothy Snyder

On September 11, a presentation of the project "Ukrainian history: a global initiative" took place in Kyiv. It was revealed for the first time in November 2023 in London by historians Timothy Snyder, Serhii Plokhy, Yaroslav Hrytsak and the founder — businessman Victor Pinchuk told about it. A year later, at the Diplomatic Academy on Mykhailivska Square in Kyiv, a few steps from the monument to Princess Olga, the organizers of the project presented the researchers who will take part in it. These are about 90 scientists from all over the world — historians, archaeologists, anthropologists, psychologists. Most of them are Ukrainians. For three years, they will work on 70 topics from the history of Ukraine — from ancient times to the present. The general concept of the project was written by the head of its academic council, Timothy Snyder. Kateryna Kobernyk, Babelʼs editor-in-chief and historian by education, exclusively received this document, read it and talked about it with Snyder. And also about what will be the answer to the key question of the project: "Who are we?".

During the last 30 years, Ukrainian historians and society have concentrated on several popular topics — Ukrainian Peopleʼs Republic, West Ukrainian Peopleʼs Republic, Executed Renaissance, Holodomor. In your concept of the project, you say that its main part is prehistoric times, a period that is not very interesting to the general public. Why? Will this allow Ukraine to fit better into the European context?

There are two reasons. First, Ukrainians now need to answer all historical questions that have remained unanswered until now. But much more important is the fact that Ukraine is a huge civilizational experience that has been accumulated over thousands of years. The history of these lands goes back much further than what you call Europe.

For example, European history, which begins with Ancient Greece, forgets that Ancient Greece was fed by the lands that are now Southern Ukraine. European history that studies the causes of the Second World War forgets that both Hitler and Stalin were extremely interested in Ukraine. That is, there is no need to fit Ukraine into the European context, because this context itself has no meaning without the lands on which the Ukrainian state arose.

Another interesting approach in your concept concerns the land and nature. You talk about the Black Sea, the Carpathians, and the Dnipro as characters in history. Even future historians in Ukraine, who have been continuously studying history for four or five years, consider the landscape as a kind of background — something that influenced events. And for you, it seems that these are the heroes of the first, not the second plan.

Yes, because me and you will live and die, and the Dnipro River will be in approximately the same location. And the coastline of the Black Sea will not change during this time. These things are on a different timeline than human experience. They shape history, but often in ways we donʼt realize. For example, the fact that Ukraine was so interesting for the colonizers is connected with rich soils and the Black Sea. There are few places in the world where such fertile soil borders ports. You may not think about it, and it is natural for you — there has always been Odesa, there has always been Kherson. But in fact, this feature has had a significant impact on how people live in this area for thousands of years.

The beginning of history here is the meeting of the Scythians and the Greeks, which took place thanks to the fertile soil, the Black Sea and the rivers that flowed into it. The Greeks colonized and built ports on all these rivers. The Scythians were engaged in agriculture and sold food to the Greeks. This is where the whole story started. Therefore, yes, mountains and rivers are characters of history. Much more important than me and you.

Before our conversation, I met my university classmate. She is a Doctor of Science, teaches in Germany and participates in your project. I also asked her about these dead heroes of the study, and she said that historians in the West often change the focus and angle of view on already known events. For example, she was at a conference or at an exhibition about the First World War through the eyes of a horse...

A horse is interesting! Letʼs start with the horse. You were surprised by this topic, because we humans are very narcissistic. The beginning of the 21st century is generally an extremely narcissistic moment in history. We think that everything that happens around us is about us and our feelings. Although in fact it is the result of many other things. Letʼs take a horse. It is quite possible that it was domesticated right here, on the territory of modern Ukraine. The domestication of the horse is one of the major, perhaps one of the five major turning points in human history. The horse helps to manage the farm better, control the territory, and fight. And itʼs very likely that its domestication led to the spread of languages from this part of the world, first to Europe and then beyond. So the horse is a good example that not everything revolves around people.

A horse domesticated on the territory of Ukraine, the spread of languages from here... Arenʼt you afraid that when 90 historians will concentrate for years on the history of the lands of modern Ukraine, in the end it may turn out that the cradle of civilization was the Kyiv region and every person on earth is a little Ukrainian? There have already been such examples.

(Laughs). I understand why you ask about this and I understand such concerns, but I am not too worried about it, because we have 90 professional historians. There will definitely be no claims that Adam and Eve were Ukrainians, or that the first bacteria on earth had Ukrainian roots, and if to look at them under a microscope better...

You can see that they wore vyshyvankas...

(Laughs). Yes! Little Poltava embroideries. But, despite the joke, many important things for humanity really happened here. Thatʼs just the truth.

Another characteristic thing in your concept is that you repeat over and over again, literally after each chapter, that researchers from different capsules within the team should cooperate with each other and not lose connection between periods. For example, in the Soviet period there is a theme of children and childhood, and you say that it would be good to look into the Bronze Age and see what happened to children there. That is, back three thousand years. This is unusual, in Ukraine there is a different approach — some people, phenomena simply emerge at a certain moment in time, and it is not clear whether they were there before.

This is really important, because everything in the story is somehow connected. And ninety scientists, working together, can do something much more than if they worked separately.

The problem is that historians really donʼt like to work together. This is what I remember from my experience, and it is a serious problem for such collective projects.

Oh, no one knows about it more than me (Laughs). But I really believe in live communication. About sixty out of ninety of our participants have now gathered in this hotel. We have groups of researchers from North America, Europe. Just before our conversation, we were sitting in this room with a group of nine historians and making connections. This is exactly what I do, and I see that people like it. They donʼt want to sit at the computer or in the library all the time. We have an ambitious goal — the history of Ukraine in three million words. For this, it is necessary to combine many intellectual efforts, and this is impossible if you donʼt establish social ties between people.

3 000 000 wordsshould be the result of the work of all project participants after three years.

The result of such an approach, when each period and generation is a visible gradual evolution of everything that came before, may not be too pleasant for someone. For example, about the fact that no new nation of patriotic people appeared in Ukraine in the 1990s. That these were the same Soviet people, often not only victims of the system, but its active members and even architects. This fact is now often preferred to be ignored.

First, history is always a lot of uncomfortable things that you canʼt hide from. In fact, if some things donʼt make you uncomfortable sometimes, itʼs not a story.

Is this propaganda?

Yes, this is propaganda and memory. In memory there are always good us and bad them, and in history everything is much more interesting. The Soviet period is, of course, unpleasant. The panel I just moderated was mostly about the Holodomor. And the Holodomor is not only a matter of people who came from outside and did terrible things to Ukrainians. The Holodomor was organized in Ukraine...

Partly by Ukrainians too...

Yes, and most of the people who were involved at the lower level were Ukrainians. And the Soviet Union was partly built by Ukrainians — we cannot avoid these things. So your point is valid. But it is also true that people can change. And in history, the idea of what is normal and acceptable is constantly changing. Therefore, I do not think that Ukrainians will not be able to cope with the historical truth — they are very mature.

But most importantly, people should understand that this project is not an attempt to solve the problems of the 20th century. It is about the last 5,000 years. When you realize that Rusʼ is the Scandinavians, and Kyiv was probably founded by the Khazars, there are many things on a completely different scale to think about.

[Russian oppositional politician and widow of prominent political leader Alexei Navalny] Yulia Navalnaya recently said that decolonizing Russia is a bad idea, because it is about people with a common background and culture. And the Russian journalist Yuliya Latynina added that if the idea of decolonization of Russia is close to Ukraine, let it start with itself and give Crimea and Western Ukraine. You have repeatedly said that historically justified borders do not exist, so how should Ukrainians react to such statements?

The question of whether Ukraine can be considered a post-colonial state is quite debatable. In my opinion, it is useful to consider it as such. But in reality, the idea of decolonization does not mean that one should stop being an empire. The real problem of the Russians is imperial political thinking. For them, decolonization means recognizing that other peoples are equal, that Russians have no special mission to spread their extraordinary civilization in the world.

But when they say that Ukraine needs to decolonize itself, it means that you need to stop thinking so much about Russia. It is necessary to get rid of complexes about it, to think of oneself as a subject and to respect oneself.

The main question you ask in the project is "Who are we?". And what will the answer to it look like in the final result — a paragraph of text, a book, five volumes, a periodical?

Historians cannot say exactly who is who. But if you know that your history is Greeks, Goths, Scythians, Scandinavians, you can find an interesting corner for you and do something with it, learn more about your past.

For me, Ukraine has the most interesting history in the world. And instead of looking at it through a tiny window, you can see a huge horizon. History does not provide answers, it provides this horizon, or, if you will, a large library.

But to answer your question from a practical point of view, we are aiming to create an online encyclopedia of three million words, because it is really too much for a book. All interested parties will have access to this information in two languages. And later we will publish books — a thick and a less thick one.

Will all information appear in this encyclopedia at once, or will you fill it gradually, like Wikipedia?

This is just to your question about the relationship between the periods. We have 70 topics and they go in a certain order, but at the same time they are not just linearly related. For example, you read in the encyclopedia how Catherine II tells how she restores the heritage of the Greeks. You think: "What is it about and how was it really?". And you see in the text a reference to the history of the relationship between the Greeks and the Scythians and how Southern Ukraine actually helped create Ancient Greece. And there is another link, and another one — deeper and deeper. Thatʼs the idea.

And who is the target audience, for which reader are you writing this story?

This is a very important question. The people weʼve brought together in the project are experts in different fields, theyʼre deeply immersed in them, and part of my job is to get everyone to write in a way that anyone can read. In fact, there are no issues in history that are so complex that they cannot be clearly explained.

That is, this encyclopaedia is for everyone who is somehow interested in history?

Yes, this is a public story that is based on deep scientific research. It will be a gift for everyone.

You met with President Zelenskyy. What did he ask you about in the context of the story?

He didnʼt prepare as well for our conversation as you did — he didnʼt read my concept (Laughs). I tried to interest him in our project. I said that this is a very ambitious task and that we do not need the help of the state, but there will be a discussion about the project and someone will try to use it for political purposes. And if we talk about Russian historical myths, then history, as we consider it, makes these myths not just false, but also very insignificant in the general context.

If you could choose one theme for yourself from this vast context, what would it be?

I would like to write about the origin of Russia, because it is an interesting moment when the Scandinavians came into contact with the Khazars — both of them are very interesting. There are a number of Scandinavian sources that I was not aware of. Against this background, there were still Arab and Western European states. This is not my field at all, but it is extremely interesting. Much more interesting than the statues of Vladimir with a sword.

Your project is similar to the DNA test that many people now take to find out about their ancestry.

It is, except that when a person receives a result, they think, “This is not what I expected. It seems that a few more tests should be done."

Translated from Ukrainian by Anton Semyzhenko.

For the history of Babel to be long, we need your donations: https://babel.ua/en/donate.