“In Crimea, people will forgive everything. Just donʼt give up on us.” A large interview with the family of the Deputy Chairman of the Mejlis Nariman Dzhelyalov about life in the occupation. Part I

On June 28, for the first time in five years, Ukraine released from Russian captivity a resident of Crimea, the deputy chairman of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar people Nariman Dzhelyalov. In 2014, he remained living in the occupied Crimea and continued his political activities, even when Russia recognized the Mejlis as an "extremist organization." FSB regularly searched Dzhelyalovʼs home, and the Investigative Committee summoned him for interviews. Despite this, Nariman helped those who were persecuted by Russia for political reasons on the occupied peninsula. In 2021, it was his turn. FSB arrested and accused Dzhelyalov of blowing up a gas station near Simferopol. Based on falsified evidence, the Crimean court sentenced him to 17 years in prison. The appeal strengthened the sentence — the colony was replaced by a prison with the strictest conditions of detention. In November 2023, Dzhelyalov was secretly transported to Siberia, where serial killers, rapists, and also political prisoners from Ukraine served their sentences alongside him. He spent eight months in prison. After the exchange, his wife Leviza came to him from Crimea with four children. They lived under occupation all these years. Journalist and war crimes documenter of the Public Interest Journalism Laboratory Hanna Mamonova — specially for Babel — met with Dzhelyalov and his family in their temporary apartment in Kyiv. The conversation turned out to be long — more than six hours. We publish it in two parts. The first one is about the life of Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars in the occupied Crimea and their prospects after the victory. The second one is about the imprisonment and release of Nariman, Russian prisons and their prisoners.

In Kyiv, the family of Nariman Dzhelyalov settled in the center in the apartment of friends. This is guest accommodation. From time to time, Crimean Tatars who leave the occupied Crimea and seek shelter live there. Residents pay only for utilities. Leviza prepares coffee for us. She brought it from the Crimea. It is made by friends of the family. When this one ends, they will order a new one, there is none in Kyiv. Her friends will pass it through Istanbul. Now this is the only possible way from the occupied peninsula: by car to Sochi, from there by plane to Istanbul, then to Chisinau or Warsaw, and from there to Ukraine.

Nariman: It is important for us to stay in Crimea and do something. It is difficult for those here to understand. Recently, a clothing store opened in Crimea and the owners gathered friends. It seems that there was something similar to a fashion show. Someone looks at it and thinks: "They are having fun there." This is not entertainment, but an attempt to hide from stress.

I am from the occupied Luhansk region and for 10 years I have heard that all those who did not leave are separatists and support Russia. Such reproaches are already directed at people who have been living on the occupied shore of the Kherson region for the second year.

Nariman: My firm conviction is that our people cannot leave occupied Crimea or any occupied territory. Otherwise, who will we go back to if everyone leaves? I was never reprimanded for staying in occupied Crimea and taking certain steps, because I publicly resisted the occupation, but other residents of Crimea were told: "Why donʼt you leave? Why this? Why that?". People who have the strength to remain in the occupation should be supported, not blamed.

Why do people in Crimea need support?

Leviza: Living under occupation is like being in prison. There is no freedom, there are only predetermined routes to follow. You turned somewhere — a fine or prison. Itʼs suffocating. The more you do, the more pressure you receive. You not only have to correct words and actions, but also thoughts.

Nariman: Living in occupied Crimea is not just difficult, it is stressful, for many it is depression. In the first years of the occupation, many people, especially the elderly, died because of it. We went from funeral to funeral.

Even those who were supporters of the so-called reunification with Russia feel the pressure and stress. They are looking for an excuse for themselves, but they face the same limitations and problems as those who are for Ukraine. Mayors, deputy ministers, the so-called heroes of the "Crimean Spring" sat with me in the pre-trial detention center in Simferopol. Despite their betrayal, Russia quickly got rid of them. The man who was one of the first to raise the Russian flag in Crimea in 2014 said in the pre-trial detention center: "Nariman, you have to flee this country, there will be no democracy here." He did not want to flee to friendly China or Kazakhstan, he wanted to go to hostile Europe.

For the past six months, it has been heard everywhere that people are tired of the war. They said “letʼs negotiate”, “letʼs give up Crimea/the east/the south in exchange for peace”. How do you feel about such a scenario?

Nariman: This is how Crimea was already given away! In the 1990s, the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) worked against the fictional Crimean Tatar separatism towards Turkey, although it never existed. SBU covered pro-Russian events, overt cultural and political interventions of Russia in Crimea, which in 2014 ended with the occupation.

When Crimea was occupied, no one protected us. They accuse us of not resisting. Well, sorry, but the army is gone. We were left behind. If the army stood up to defend Crimea, we would stand next to it. We got up anyway, because we were bringing food to the military when they were blocked by the Russians at the military bases. We are given an example of what happened in Kharkiv in 2014. So when did it happen? Already after Crimea.

We can understand why Ukraine was unable to protect the peninsula, but donʼt blame it on the residents of Crimea — then we will understand. In Crimea, people will forgive everything. They believe in the future. Just donʼt give up on us.

And do many people in Crimea really believe in our common future?

Nariman: After my release, I saw the president. He asked how many people wanted de-occupation. I replied that no one knows. People who definitely rejoice in the successes of the Ukrainian army are not the majority, but their quality is very high. They kept their loyalty and love even in the conditions of occupation.

The majority lives in other categories. Itʼs not that they love Putin, they have a lot of problems because of the occupation, but they think itʼs better to live in a depressed state, but to have a safe house, work, and no war.

The war started with Crimea. In 2016, the International Criminal Court (ICC) declared that there was an international armed conflict on the peninsula, but the missiles flew only after 2022. Leviza, how do the residents of Crimea react to shelling?

Leviza: We arrived in Kyiv the day before they hit “Okhmatdyt”. On July 8, we ran to shelter twice at the sound of explosions. The children were not scared because they were used to explosions in Crimea. Once the eldest daughter was leaving school and there was a strike to the garrison, which is located near us. We have relatives living in Dzhankoi, so we asked them to move closer to us near Simferopol. And they said: "No. Well, it exploded. Well, the door flew off in the attic." Thatʼs what they said about the explosion when someone smoked in the wrong place. Friends said that "Grad" systems are standing next to the houses and firing towards mainland Ukraine. People expect that something will hit them in return. After each shelling, people get on the phone and call their relatives. In Crimea, it is impossible to find out in the news where the strike landed and whether anyone was injured. The government blocks information.

We have military bases being hit, and at least I have a feeling that these are accurate hits. But itʼs still scary. But there are people in Crimea who rejoice at the success of the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

Nariman, the president asked about the number of people who want the deoccupation of Crimea. Talking to those who are loyal or categorical is easy, these are understandable reactions. What to say to the Crimeans who are in the middle?

Nariman: People understand that there is an abnormal life and cannot continue like this. But someoneʼs relative worked in the police, someone served in the army — whether they wanted it or not — but it happened. Everyone is worried about the question, will they be arrested or deported after de-occupation? People have no answers. And when there is no answer, there are fears and fantasies. If we give answers, it will be our conversation with the residents of Crimea.

Do you have answers to these questions?

Nariman: First of all, we must explain to everyone, both the Ukrainian military who will enter Crimea and those who will restore Ukrainian power on the peninsula, that the people in Crimea are our people, our citizens. You canʼt treat them like non-natives. They did not find themselves in the occupation of their own free will.

I taught history at school. I explained to the children how the Soviet state treated Ukrainians who were under Nazi occupation, how they were rounded up and driven to the fording of the Dnipro, mowed down with machine guns, and declared enemies of the people. Do we in Ukraine want to repeat this experience in de-occupied territories?

I personally know people whose close relatives work in the occupation authorities. They say, let them be punished according to the law. I will not interfere. But the state and society do not have the right to throw insulting words at everyone who remained in the occupation indiscriminately.

During the ten years of occupation, many Russians settled in Crimea. They bought apartments, got married. Are there answers for them and their family members, what will happen after de-occupation?

Nariman: My relative married a Crimean Tatar, but he is a citizen of Russia and moved to Crimea to her. He does nothing wrong, he works as a construction worker. She asks what will happen to her husband if Crimea is returned. People donʼt know the answers to simple questions.

Not all Russians who came to Crimea are involved in the occupation, although they supported it by their inaction. They are often there because of earnings, because everything that is built on the peninsula is mostly built by people from different Russian regions. The empire did everything to saturate Crimea with its personnel: there were programs, benefits. It does this for many reasons. One of them is that Russia does not trust the people of Crimea. For example, the guard of the pre-trial detention center No. 2, a simple ensign, admitted to me that he was a former SBU worker. He had a good position, but after the occupation, his career failed because he was not trusted. Another reason is that it is not known how the Crimea issue will be resolved after the end of the war. Maybe Russia will again demand some referendums. The most suitable empires will be found, because they will vote for it.

Leviza serves Crimean coffee with granulated sugar boiled in milk. Crimean Tatars do not add sugar to their coffee, but put a piece of sugar in their mouths. Nariman remembers how his grandmother cooked Crimean sugar and he watched her. It was already in Crimea. The families of Nariman and Leviza, after being deported to Uzbekistan in 1944, returned to the peninsula in 1989. Nariman told the children a lot about this, drawing parallels with the occupation of the peninsula in 2014. He and his wife are convinced that these conversations saved children from the influence of Russian propaganda in educational institutions. Leviza says that in 2022, the son refused to go to kindergarten, because there they were preparing a concert in honor of the Russian soldiers who are fighting in Ukraine.

At the time of the interview, Narimanʼs youngest daughter, four-year-old Nial, is sleeping in the next room, being looked after by the eldest, Adile. The difference between them is 11 years. The middle children — 13-year-old Eminye and eight-year-old Cemil — play in the kitchen and speak Crimean Tatar to each other.

Leviza, you said that the children do not know Ukrainian. You have three students, how will they study in Kyiv?

Leviza: We are not worried about the girls, they will manage with it. They are A-students. They donʼt speak Ukrainian, but they understand people. We have a big problem with the adaptation of our son, a first grader. When Nariman was arrested, he closed himself off, hardly communicating with people. He began to reveal himself in the last year, little by little.

Nariman: We speak Crimean Tatar at home. It cost us some effort and it is our conscious choice. Now in Kyiv we remember Ukrainian, we speak three languages.

Many Crimean Tatars of our age and younger mainly speak Russian in Crimea, because there they created conditions for people to forget their own language — Crimean Tatar, Ukrainian.

Did children learn Russian or Crimean Tatar in Crimea?

Leviza: Dzhemil went to kindergarten and spoke only Crimean Tatar, in kindergarten he spoke Russian. In 2016, they created bilingual groups instead of the national ones that existed before the occupation. Parents are told that these are the same groups, but there they greet and say goodbye in Crimean Tatar, the rest of the time they speak in Russian. I worked in a kindergarten until 2016, until I gave birth to Dzhelala, I had a national group. We spoke only Crimean Tatar. In schools before the occupation, in Crimean Tatar classes, Crimean Tatar language and literature were studied for three hours a week — now half an hour, and Russian language and literature for three hours. The situation with the Ukrainian language is even worse. Although according to Russian legislation, the state languages in Crimea are Russian, Crimean Tatar, and Ukrainian.

How will you respond to the argument that children under occupation can learn Ukrainian at home with their parents?

Nariman: I understand that people who do not know what life is like under occupation cannot understand us. Itʼs ok. A language requires an environment, and there is none in Crimea. In Crimea after 2022, there is an atmosphere of suspicion and fear everywhere. Even in 2019, there were people who had a Ukrainian flag hanging in their car, now this is impossible. They punish for everything — the Ukrainian language, anti-war posts on social networks, the combination of blue and yellow colors, although these are not only the colors of Ukraine, but also of the Crimean Tatar people. Professional whistleblowers who appeared during the occupation and are paid for it made the situation absurd.

Leviza, in schools in the occupied territories, propaganda lessons "Conversations about important things" are held. What do children say about them?

Leviza: My children are the only ones in the village who did not go to them. They are scheduled as the first lesson on Mondays, although it is an after-school activity. The line-up with the Russian national anthem lasts for fifteen minutes, and then the children in the classrooms are told about the so-called “special military operation”. I went to the principal and told her that according to Russian law, children go to extracurricular activities only with the consent of their parents. I donʼt give it. The director could not answer. Other children said: "Is it possible? Why donʼt my parents do this?"

Nariman: Letʼs be honest, you told your friends, other parents — they did not anything. Because you have the will and strength to do it. Maybe itʼs scary, but you do it. Many parents are afraid that there will be no problems for the child and for themselves.

Leviza: My husband sat with me. It was like a guarantee for me. They couldnʼt imprison me either.

Leviza, after 2022, people abducted in the occupied south — those who did not pass filtering at checkpoints when trying to leave the occupied territory — are kept in Crimea. In October 2022, thousands of children and residents of psychiatric boarding schools in the Kherson region were brought to you and are still being held by force. It is impossible to hide such a large number of people in captivity. What do the local population say?

Leviza: I have a small circle of communication. We know itʼs happening, but I donʼt think most people are aware of it.

Do they not notice it because of their indifference?

Nariman: People under occupation open their eyes to political persecution when it affects them. Pre-trial detenyion centers, FSB — thousands of people pass by their walls and do not pay attention. Everyone shuts themselves off from everything in order to survive. The pre-trial detention center No. 2, in which I was held in 2023 and which became operational after the invasion, was built on the territory of the colony. People drive by it, they do not know that a new pre-trial detention center has appeared in Simferopol, where Ukrainians are kept. Many people do not tell that they are being searched and their relatives are being kidnapped. FSB intimidates them, saying that if information about this gets out somewhere, it will be worse [for them].

Your relatives stayed in Crimea. Will they not leave?

Nariman: There is my mother. My father died in March 2022, when I was in the pre-trial detention center. Mother is sick, she cannot stand the trip, and she will not leave Crimea. There is someone to take care of her.

We often say to people who went to Europe from the occupied territories, why are you inactive. Take the flags and go to the Russian embassies — demand the release of political prisoners. And people answer that they are afraid of the consequences. Nothing threatens them personally, but their parents, relatives, and friends remain in Crimea.

Have you always been sure that you will get out of the pre-trial detention center?

Nariman: I never doubted. Even after 17 years of imprisonment, but I will get out.